Life is a working progress, Understanding is in gradual stages and Appreciation is always ongoing

I first had this sent to me and at first I had a hard time reading it.. But later on at work about a month ago I did and it got me thinking.

In the Name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful
The Quran
[26:192] This is a revelation from the Lord of the universe.
[26:193] The Honest Spirit (Gabriel) came down with it.
[26:194] To reveal it into your heart, that you may be one of the warners.
[26:195] In a perfect Arabic tongue.
[12:2] We have revealed it an Arabic Quran, that you may understand.*
[20:113] We thus revealed it, an Arabic Quran, and we cited in it all kinds of prophecies, that they may be saved, or it may cause them to take heed.
It is God's very own Arabic narration of the Quran that is described by Him as perfect (18:1-2), accurate (11:1), fully detailed, and infallible (10:37), with no ambiguity (39:28), contradictions (4:82), or flaws (18:1).
In other words, these divine characteristics of the Quran are exclusive to the ARABIC text that He revealed; the book that was written by the hands of prophet Muhammad(25:5).
It's a non-negotiable fact that the Arabic language is the most efficient and sophisticated language when it comes to expressing detailed specifications. The Most Gracious has promised us salvation through His divine book (6:51, 20:113). The clarity and the specific detailing of His laws, systems, examples, and commands that are needed for that salvation, would have never been achieved through any other language. Perhaps God even created that efficient and sophisticated Arabic language only to fit this heavy, numerically structured message and His perfect, detailed laws.
In any way, it was God's infinite mercy and grace, to have this book of guidance detailed and revealed in Arabic in order to establish the truth and clarify His laws and systems in the most accurate, specific, efficient, and comprehensive written and readable format:
[10:82] GOD establishes the truth with His words, despite the criminals.
[6:115] The word of your Lord is complete, * in truth and justice. Nothing shall abrogate His words. He is the Hearer, the Omniscient.
[13:37] We revealed these laws in Arabic, and if you ever acquiesce to their wishes, after this knowledge has come to you, you will have no ally, nor a protector, against GOD.
[41:3] A scripture whose verses provide the complete details, in an Arabic Quran, for people who know.

One of the laws decreed for us by God is the punishment of fornication or unlawful intimate relations (sexual relations out of marriage committed by married or unmarried individuals- or "zena" as expressed in the Arabic language of the Quran). We know full well that God almighty detailed the punishment of such act in chapter 24. The punishment of fornication for BOTH men and women is hundred lashes after providing four witnesses. The four witnesses must be produced whether it is a man or a woman who committed the sin of fornication. Those who accuse chaste women (righteous women who strive to maintain their chastity whether they are married or not) without providing four witnesses are subject to a punishment of eighty lashes for such evil accusation. Those who accuse their own wives without having witnesses must swear four times, and if the accused wife testified differently, by swearing four times, her testimony shall supersede and her judgment rests with God if she was lying.
These are all clear and detailed specifications in regard of fornication and adultery (unlawful sex conducted specifically by married people):
[24:2] The adulteress and the adulterer ( In Arabic text: the male and the female who commit fornication - zena) you shall whip each of them a hundred lashes. Do not beswayed by pity from carrying out GOD's law, if you truly believe in GOD and the Last Day. And let a group of believers witness their penalty.*
[24:3] The adulterer (In Arabic text: the man who commits fornication, " zani") will end up marrying an adulteress (In Arabic text: the woman who commits fornication, "zaneiah") or an idol worshiper, and the adulteress (In Arabic text: the woman who commits fornication, "zaneiah") will end up marrying an adulterer (In the Arabic text: the man who commits fornication, "zani") or an idol worshiper. This is prohibited for the believers.
[24:4] Those who accuse "married"(In the Arabic text: chaste not "married") women of adultery, then fail to produce four witnesses, you shall whip them eighty lashes, and do not accept any testimony from them; they are wicked.
[24:5] If they repent afterwards and reform, then GOD is Forgiver, Merciful.
[24:6] As for those who accuse their own spouses, without any other witnesses, thenthe testimony may be accepted if he swears by GOD four times that he is telling the truth.
[24:7] The fifth oath shall be to incur GOD's condemnation upon him, if he was lying.
[24:8] She shall be considered innocent if she swears by GOD four times that he is a liar.
[24:9] The fifth oath shall incur GOD’s wrath upon her if he was telling the truth.
[24:10] This is GOD's grace and mercy towards you. GOD is Redeemer, Most Wise.
[24:11] A gang among you produced a big lie.* Do not think that it was bad for you; instead, it was good for you. Meanwhile, each one of them has earned his share of the guilt. As for the one who initiated the whole incident, he has incurred a terrible retribution.
[24:12] When you heard it, the believing men and the believing women should have had better thoughts about themselves, and should have said, "This is obviously a big lie."
[24:13] Only if they produced four witnesses (you may believe them). If they fail to produce the witnesses, then they are, according to GOD, liars.
[24:14] If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy in this world and in theHereafter, you would have suffered a great retribution because of this incident.
[24:15] You fabricated it with your own tongues, and the rest of you repeated it with your mouths without proof. You thought it was simple, when it was, according to GOD, gross.
[24:16] When you heard it, you should have said, "We will not repeat this. Glory be to You. This is a gross falsehood."
[24:17] GOD admonishes you that you shall never do it again, if you are believers.
[24:18] GOD thus explains the revelations for you. GOD is Omniscient, Wise.

In chapter 4, verses 15 and 16, God is establishing a totally different punishment that is mistaken with the punishment of fornication. In 4:15, there is a punishment specified for women to stay for life in their homes until they die or until God finds an exit for them.

What is this punishment for?
In 4:16, God is specifying that the couple who commit that same, exact sin mentioned in verse 15 shall be punished. Again, what this punishment for? The Arabic text and grammar in both verses is very specific, articulate, and clear. The Arabic word used for that sin is " Al-fahishah”, well defined by the most effective defining grammatical tools, " the alif and the lam", which are equivalent to the word "the” in English. When attached to that sin, these two letters make the act very well known and defined just as the acts of "Al-salat" and Al-zakat" - the Contact Prayers and the Charity- are well defined all over the Quran. This tool is used for both acts because both practices - salat and zakat- were already well known and in existence when Quran was revealed.
Here is what 4:15- and 16 are stating:
Health Quarantine
[4:15] Those who commit "adultery" - adultery is not used in the original Arabic text. The word used is Al-fahishah - among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.* [4:16] The couple who commits "adultery" - adultery is not used in the original Arabic text. A clear Arabic tool is used to refer to Al-fahishah that is mentioned in 4:15 - shall bepunished.* If they repent and reform, you shall leave them alone. GOD is Redeemer, Most Merciful. *4:15 A woman witnessed by four people in the act of committing adultery on four different occasions, with four different partners, represents a danger to public health. Such a woman is a depository of germs, and a health quarantine protects the society from her. A good example of an exit that saves a quarantined woman is marriage - someone may wish to marry her, and thus protect her and the society.
The explanation provided by God’s messenger of the covenant in the above footnote regarding a woman committing the act of adultery in four different occasions with four different men doesn’t exist in the Arabic text or even hinted to.
There are absolutely no contradictions in the Quran. Any contradictions we sense must be the result of our very own shortcomings and lake of knowledge. The following two questions are often asked by those who are striving to understand the Quran and using their brains as commanded by God. They are also often asked by those who challenge the perfection and accuracy of the Quran.

The two questions are:
1- What is the punishment for fornication or adultery- Is it the hundred lashes as specified in chapter 24 or is it staying home until death as specified in 4:15-16?
2- Are men in 4:16 receiving different punishment from women in 4:15? - why?

The answers and the facts:
1- If the punishment of fornication and adultery is already established, clearly, for both men and women in chapter 24, the above different punishment in 4:15-16 MUST BE for a totally DIFFERENT sin. This sin is worded by the Most Gracious in a perfect Arabic tongue as " Al-fahishah" and not as fornication or adultery as translated.
2- The word used by God in 4:15-16,"Al-fahishah", is well defined by strong defining grammatical tools which means it is a well know act.
3- Besides being well defined, the word implies a very indecent action.
4- When committed by women (4:15), Al-fahishah must be dealt with by a punishment that is totally different from the established punishment of fornication and adultery. This different punishment is staying home until death or until God finds an exit which could possibly be repenting and reforming.
5- Then, in 4:16, and based on the perfect, infallible Arabic grammatical construction of both verses, and after specifying women in verse 15, God is adding that we shall also punish the TWO MALES who commit the same exact sin referred to in 4:15 (Al-fahishah). Because the punishment for both males and females is always the same in the Quran (both man and woman who commit fornication shall receive the 100 lashes, both male and female thieves are equally punished, 5:38), one must conclude that the punishment for " Al- fahishah" is the same for both men and women. So, the two males who commit Al- fahishah must stay home until death or until they repent and reform.
6- Based on the divine choice of the Arabic words by God, He has taught us that He used the well defined fahishah, "Al-fahishah” three times in the Quran for the sin of homosexuality in the following verses:
Lot: Homosexuality Condemned
[7:80] Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination ( Al-fahishah in the Arabic text) ; no one in the world has done it before!
Lot[27:54] Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination (Al-fahishah in the Arabic text), publicly, while you see?
Lot[29:28] Lot said to his people, "You commit such an abomination (Al-fahishah in the Arabic text), no one in the world has ever done it before you. The following is the forth time that this well defined fahishah (Al-fahishah) is used by God.
[24:19] Those who love to see immorality (Al-fahishah in the Arabic text) spread among the believers have incurred a painful retribution in this life and in the Hereafter. GOD knows, while you do not know.
7- The fact that some believe that the word "Al-fahishah" in 4:15 is referring to prostitution or having multiple unlawful sex with different men is actually baseless. There is another specific, well defined word that is used by God in the Quran for this specific act of prostitution. This word is "Al-bighaa", which is stated in 24:33. If prostitution is the sin meant to be mentioned in 4:15-16, God would have used the right word for it just as He used it in 24:33.
[24:33] Those who cannot afford to get married shall maintain morality until GOD provides for them from His grace. Those among your servants who wish to be freed in order to marry, you shall grant them their wish, once you realize that they are honest. And give them from GOD’s money that He has bestowed upon you. You shall not force your girls to commit prostitution, seeking the materials of this world, if they wish to be chaste. If anyone forces them, then GOD, seeing that they are forced, is Forgiver, Merciful.
8- Mathematical confirmation: It is not a coincidence that the one verse that God is specifically condemning the PUBLIC practice of homosexuality is mathematically correlated with the verse that God is using to establish the punishment of " Al-fahishah" to be the segregation (staying away from public) after producing four witnesses - staying home until death or until God finds an exit (repent and reform).
[4:15] Those who commit "adultery" - adultery is not used in the original Arabic text. The word used is Al-fahishah - among your women, you must have four witnesses against them, from among you. If they do bear witness, then you shall keep such women in their homes until they die, or until GOD creates an exit for them.* Lot [27:54] Lot said to his people, "How could you commit such an abomination (Al-fahishah in the Arabic text), publicly, while you see?

4:15, 27:54 04152754 = 19x 218566

9- My conclusion: The punishment that is established in 4:15-16 is a punishment for a sin that has nothing to do with adultery or fornication. The punishment for adultery and/or fornication for both men and women is already clearly established in chapter 24. Al-fahishah is not the practice of prostitution. There is a perfect word used by God for prostitution in the Quran in 24:33. Al-fahishah, well defined by the alif and the lam is used by God to refer to homosexuality in three different verses. The perfect Arabic construction and grammar in 4:15-16 leaves no doubt that the abomination talked about is committed by women together and men together and that both must be equally punished by segregation - staying home until death or until God finds an exit for them (repent and reform)
The messenger's translation is by all means the best and the most guided available translation. However, it cannot and will not by any mean equate the divine Arabic word of God. The messenger was a human being like all of us who was constantly and gradually evolving around the Quran. He NEVER claimed that his translation is perfect, and he NEVER listed translating the Quran among his duties as a messenger of God. The message of worshiping God alone and following Quran alone was perfectly delivered by him. The duties listed at the last page of appendix 2 were honestly fulfilled by him.. Any flaws we find in his translation only prove to us day after day that he was only a human like all of us, and teach us that the Quran, in its Arabic tongue, is what establishes the divine truth. It's the Arabic Quran that contains the awesome, built-in mathematical proof. It’s the Arabic words that are authenticated by that mathematical proof. It's the Arabic text that is considered as the verifiable word of God. It's also the grammatical structure of that perfect Arabic text that makes us find out and learn new aspects, and perspectives of this amazing Quran everyday. It's the Arabic word of God that will last until the end of the world as the ONLY ultimate reference and the absolute, infallible truth. It is my responsibility as a believer and as a native Arabic speaker to declare to all of you the above conclusion of my research, following God's command in 2:159-160, and out of fear of what is stated in the Quran about the sin of concealing the truth. Having expressed all of the above, I'm fully aware that the abuse of any kind of knowledge or blessing is a form of transgression, and I believe that, my fear for God has been always a guard for me against such transgression or against any kind of abuse of my knowledge and fluency of the Arabic grammar and language.. I have done my research and have reached my conclusions. It is your turn to do your own homework, and verify with others what I have shared with you.
Crucial Advice
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Gross Offense
[2:159] Those who conceal our revelations and guidance, after proclaiming them for the people in the scripture, are condemned by GOD; they are condemned by all the condemners. [2:160] As for those who repent, reform, and proclaim, I redeem them. I am the Redeemer, Most Merciful.
Corrupted Religious Leaders
Conceal the Quran's Miracle*
[2:174] Those who conceal GOD’s revelations in the scripture, in exchange for a cheap material gain, eat but fire into their bellies. GOD will not speak to them on the Day of Resurrection, nor will He purify them. They have incurred a painful retribution. [2:140].... Who is more evil than one who conceals a testimony he has learned from GOD? GOD is never unaware of anything you do."
Peace and may God bless,

Upon reading and trying to digest the article – bar the 19* miracle part of it… I was motivated to find out and to see what the lady (was a lady’s article) was talking about.
As such here is my findings or rather much comment on the article..

After reading the verse and on further looking at the references re: the word fahisha… I am thinking maybe there is more to this than just the word and the translation of the word/act involved..While on some instinct level (usually mine) the word fahisha denoted to me a sort of sexual conduct or misconduct as the word pertains… but I feel in vs 4:15 and vs 4:16 is is talking about two different sets of sexual conduct..
Reason for this is that vs 4:15 uses the word "yatina- al- fahishat"… this for me denotes a particular type of act of "fahishat".. i.e a type of sexual conduct/misconduct.. it could maybe be a sexual conduct between women alone .. As via definition is says this act is between women.. i.e I can take that to mean a sexual conduct practiced by women onlyVs 4:19 uses "yatina bi fahishat mubayinat" i.e proven yatina bi fahishat
Bismillahi...O you who believe, it is not lawful for you to inherit what the women leave behind, against their will. You shall not force them to give up anything you had given them, unless they commit a "proven adultery". You shall treat them nicely. If you dislike them, you may dislike something wherein GOD has placed a lot of good.

it refers to women so I feel it is a sexual conduct of women that is not approved by God..

Vs 65:1 also uses this same term "yatina bi fahishat mubayinat"…
O you prophet, when you people divorce the women, you shall ensure that a divorce interim is fulfilled. You shall measure such an interim precisely. You shall reverence GOD your Lord. Do not evict them from their homes, nor shall you make life miserable for them, to force them to leave on their own, unless they commit a "proven adultery". These are GOD's laws. Anyone who transgresses GOD's laws commits an injustice against himself. You never know; maybe GOD wills something good to come out of this.

I DON’T THINK IT IS ADULTERY (WHEN WE USE THE ENGLISH TERM ADULTERY.. CHEATING ON A PARTNER) BECAUSE ADULTERY HAS ALREADY BEEN COVERED VIA THE WORD ZINA.. IN SURAH 24 AS the Author of the article RIGHTFULLY NOTED… BUT ON A LOOSE LEVEL… IT IS ALSO ADULTERY BECAUSE THE SEXUAL ACT IS NOT WITH ONES PARTNER BUT WITH SOMEONE/SOMETHING ELSE.. SO TRANSLATING IT AS ADULTERY IS ALSO RIGHT BUT NOT QUITE “DETAILED RIGHT”
Vs 4:16 does not include the word "fahisha".. but uses the term “yatiyaniha minkun”This I don’t know what is refers to but on an instinct level… it could be an act by couples.. Since the term couples is used in the translation

The deciding word there is then to define "yatina" for same sex women.. or "yatiyaniha" for couples… any help with this guys...

Vs 60:12.. also uses a form of yatina when it says "yatina bi bhutani"…
Bismillahi...O you prophet, when the believing women (who abandoned the disbelievers) to seek asylum with you pledge to you that they will not set up any idols besides GOD, nor steal, nor "commit adultery", nor kill their children, nor fabricate any falsehood, nor disobey your righteous orders, you shall accept their pledge, and pray to GOD to forgive them. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

So on closer level.. it is a form of adultery/but to be more specific it could be a form of conduct between women as it refers to women…

To put a twist in things.. Based on the English translation..Vs 4:24 is translated as adultery.. While this is right ( I have coverd how this seems to me) but to be more detailed..
bismillahi...Also prohibited are the women who are already married, unless they flee their disbelieving husbands who are at war with you. These are GOD's commandments to you. All other categories are permitted for you in marriage, so long as you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain your "morality, by not committing adultery". Thus, whoever you like among them, you shall pay them the dowry decreed for them. You commit no error by mutually agreeing to any adjustments to the dowry. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.
we need to examine the word used for it which is “fa- a- tu huna Ujurahuna fariidhat.”. someone help with this please…I think this refers to either sex; as such it is an act that can be carried out by everyone…
Vs 4:25 uses the term "atayna bi fahishat" and the English has been translated as adultery..This is right also (I have covered this), but to be more detailed we need to examine the word uses.. atayna fahishat.. it is a type of fahishat/sexual conduct.. help with this please..

I am thinking crux here is the translation of such acts as adultery, which I think I may have established as being right.. But it is not quite detailed in English as which particular type of adultery it is..
Vs 5:5 has also been described as adultery but the word fahishat is not used..
bismillahi ....Today, all good food is made lawful for you. The food of the people of the scripture is lawful for you. Also, you may marry the chaste women among the believers, as well as the chaste women among the followers of previous scripture, provided you pay them their due dowries. You shall maintain chastity, not "committing adultery", nor taking secret lovers. Anyone who rejects faith, all his work will be in vain, and in the Hereafter he will be with the losers.
The Arabic used for this is” muhsinina ghayra”.. so help with this as well please…

Now to put all things in perspective..Vs 17:32 uses a a word to describe adultery..the arabic used is zina..This I feel may refer to the English understanding of adultery.. i.e cheating of married partners…bismillahi... You shall not commit adultery; it is a gross sin, and an evil behavior.So guys this is my own take on the matter.

Whilst i agree with the author of the article that the vs 4:15 refers to same sex coupling in the particular verse referring to women.. i am also looking for us to examine the other uses of the word relating to sexual acts...

(using RK translation)

With afterthought and un reading the quran again, I am trying to make sense of the Arabic words as it relates to the english translation..

I must stress that I HAVE ALWAYS HAD THE OPINION (same as the author of the article) THAT THE ONLY CORRECT UNDERSTANDING OF THE QURAN IS VIA THE ARABIC SCRIPT but as I am not a native Arabic speaker but what I try to do is that I follow the translations via the words used in Arabic.

I.e. “Qul”: is used in various verses and via translation it means “Proclaim” or “Say” so anywhere I see “Qul” I know it is an instruction asking the reader to “Say”
It is with this approach, “using the Quran language to understand the Quran with Guidance from God and inspiration as well to enlighten my own limited capabilities” that I use as such sometimes I find some errors in translations which I willput as “ overtly right but not quite detailed right”

For example Verse 1 of Surah 110 An- Nasr
“Idha ja ha Nasru llahi wa-al Fat-hu” this is wholly translated as “When triumph comes from God and Victory” (RK)or “When comes the Help of God and Victory” (YA)
On closer look I can see that I feel there is a slight faux pas in the translation because, firstly the word “Nasr” is the word used for Victory.. However via reading, Nasr is in the middle sentence not the end..

As such it should maybe read, “When Gods victory and triumph comes” or “When Gods Victory and Help comes” (which co-incidentally is how it is translated via progressive Muslims i.e. victory before)
For it I understand it as that because before triumph – jubilation, smugness of overcoming adversity -one has to first be the victor/winner in the situation..
So Victory comes before triumph”
Simple things like that…
I guess at first I didn’t notice it, but after reading the Quran again as an ongoing process, these things start to jump out at me..

The more recent one is on surah 3…which is interesting because I have already given my first hand intake on surah 3.. But as I am reading it again, different things are jumping out at me and making me - not re-evaluate - but expand on what I had thought earlier…

Like I have said before, I can only thank my creator for what he has given me and I do thank Him immensely.. Gw I can get my act together and focus as I should be focusing..

Remember Job...

And Job when he called his Lord: "I have been inflicted with harm, and you are the Most Merciful!" 21:83


I am inspired to remember Job today and his conduct towards and dependance on His lord.. and i am hoping and praying that My Lord will grant me such a devotion to Him (God)and an eternal reverence for Him (God). That i can say inspite and despite in the face of all and nothing. That Be you Glorified God, Lord of the universe

Now that was a person that re-iterated clearly the meaning of "Unquavering dependance" who inspite of his trials, stuck fast to his Lord...
History indeed does try to teach us a few things, but are we ready to learn.. Whilst i see it now.. will i see it in future..

My God, let me not depart from Thee,

Let my heart harken unto Thy words daily

Let my lips rank eloquent in Your remembrance

Increase in my understanding and knowledge of all things from Thee

Glory be to thee, in this life time and in the next

Glory be to thee my Lord forever and ever more

Dismiss me not from thy service Lord

But train me for Thy will

for even I in fields so broad

Some duties I may fulfill

and i shall ask for no reward

Except to serve thee still

I am that He who has made me to be

A few simple things gives me Happines.

Being able to Praise God, to sing and wiggle my jubbly behind

Seeing Nature as the Creator has made it

Appreciating beauty when I see it

The changes in the mountains and coloration of the grass

The different seasons and the different moods it brings.

A simple soul this my form carries

When combined with this ridiculous world, It becomes obscurred and lost

But when exposed to its true self you start to glimpse its inherrent simplicity

I am elated to be able to appreciate that which I have been given..

I am inspired and filled with Thanks for my Creator

For despite all the worldy bravado and fighting talk

Lies a simple heart wanting to be set free

Despite all the non-challant attitude and strong farcade

Lies a Simple soul waiting to be exposed.

Wind in the willows

When men farts is smells of ugliness and putrefied mess
When ladies fart … scrap that ladies do not fart, they just perspire out rose scented fragrances.
That is what I believe in…
Yeah right whom am I kidding?
I fart, you fart everyone Farts. One thing we can’t escape in life. We all shit and we fart as well.

Fart is an ugly word, better to use pass gas - that is more eloquent and obviously more sociably accepting.
Now what is my hang up with passing gas Well it is passing gas and prayer..

Khalifa
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For God doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
Pickthal
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
Shakir
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Sher Ali
O ye who believe ! go not near Prayer when you are not in full possession of your senses, until you know what you are saying, nor when you are unclean, except when you are travelling along a way, until you have bathed. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or if one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women and you find no water, then betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Surely Allah is the Effacer of sins, Forgiving,
"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, do not come near the assembly while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except for travellers, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling or one of you has excretion or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water: then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.

4:43 And 5:6
Khalifa
O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, God doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Pickthal
O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Shakir
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Sher Ali
O ye who believe ! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you be unclean, purify yourselves by bathing. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women, and find not water, betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Allah desires not that HE should place you in a difficulty but HE desires to purify you and to complete HIS favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.
"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, if you rise to attend the assembly, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe you heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are filthy, then become clean; and if you are ill or traveling or you have excreted, or you have sexually touched the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.

****(Any parentheses are the translator’s own inference)*******

What we can see is that the translations differ slightly.
Though the whole picture is clear in what should be and not be done. But it is this matter of Passing GAS that still bugs me.
My mind is clear in what I do. But the issue is brought to mind again because as on my period One of the symptoms I suffer from is GAS. Before hand my stomach bloats up with gas that nothing will shift unless obviously the natural act of menstruation, which will then release the gas over the duration.
Not as with human complexities goes, I have no control over this gas, it just passes out as freely as it gets stored..
Mind you. It DOES NOT smell. Really! It doesn’t smell. No whiff of anything other than air
Besides my fart don’t smell of anything other than flowers and sprite. (Basically any perfume/ deodorant I keep on me in case it does)
Anyhow, my Period Fart does not smell. Never has and gw never will

So if I am afflicted with period fart over a course of lets say 5 days. And over these duration days I have to pray and I fart each time.

Before I go on let me clear another presumption
Prayer during period is ok for me…
There is nothing in the scripture that disallows it so I gather as we are all enjoined to pray- man and woman alike. It must be done. Blood or no blood, pain or no pain…

So lets deal with this from 2 angles, ablution which is required for prayer and prayer

The only direct mention of gas is via khalifa’s translation
Although it is a known practice to repeat ablution after farting and as I know it is because of what I have been taught and I guess as well through hearsay and “see what I do, do what I do” and also being shown by my father to cut the prayer and repeat the whole process after farting during prayer

I agree with re: ablution because it is the start for prayer and in my view any contamination re: preparation nullifies the ablution. Also the jury is still out there Re: farting during ablution though my own personal practice is to repeat ablution if the farting is before I start prayer

For the prayer itself is does not mention anything bar the intoxication and also the preparatory before it- which is the ablution…

I will guess/assume that farting during salat and repeating the whole salat it is one of the things that people say is Sunnah.

Now we all know my own opinions of that. (If I cant verify or ascertain proof I do not believe in It. Everything for me is instinct/inspiration and logic and God help me with inspiration/understanding and application)

So the example there is.
IF I started my prayer and I didn’t break the state of ablution. And I pass gas (which obviously don’t smell) what do I do

Also

the converse is the case IF I started my prayer but I didn’t break the state of ablution and I pass gas (that smells, but I cant reach my trusted perfume to blot out the smell) what do I do.

What I guess from my thinking is that when you are starting prayer everything is of insignificance because you are establishing contact with the creator. Once your mind is on God and praising God I guess you don’t really notice anything else or are aware of anything else
It is not like a telephone conversation where you dial and can cut the phone at any time you wish
So once the contact is made, earthly matters/earthly bodies are irrelevant hence I would rather continue with my prayers and finish it up. BUT I would not start another prayer i.e. afternoon/morning/evening without a new ablution. Generally out of preference for myself I go, new prayer new ablution - I guess because it forms my preparation and frame of mind for the prayer

Now if the fart causes me to loose concentration during my prayers - Re: smell to overpowering that I start focusing on the act of farting rather than on my prayers - then I guess I follow my conscience which rightfully tells me. “Fatima! You need to cut this and retry again” Then in that case I would go back out and re-do my ablution and restart my prayer to God.

As ever, God provides meaning and explanation. May God guide us to the right understanding, the right worship practices towards attaining salvation/redemption from Him.

To God belongs all Glory, Honour and Praise. In this life and in the hereafter. There is only One God. May God be glorified in all the worlds and universe

My lord, direct me to the right meaning, understanding and application of your words. Forgive me Lord if I forget or make a mistake. You alone do I worship and You alone do call for Help. Guide me Lord in your straight path.

===============================================================

I remember i had written something earlier and i kept is.. i just found it tonight 30/05/09 so i thought to share it as it is still in the same thread and in fact was the original idea that came to mind...

From: me

Subject: prayer and farting, whats ur own view

To: some people

Date: Saturday, 16 August, 2008, 7:15 AM

right guys, before i proceed i must first say that the letter K on this Keyboard is missing so i may replace i wiith a big c (C) if it begins to bug me when i am in serious flow.

salam alaykum guys.

the topic today for contemplation is farting during salat.

now i remember a time when i was young and we went for congregational prayers in my dads friends hose and yes as truth be told i let one off when bowing down. this to my embarrassment caused a big commotion and resulted in the female populaion exclaiming loudly. ( embarrassment time over as i was about 11 yrs old then)
now i was having similar discussions which someone brought up yesterday again about farting and prayer.
so here are the questions

would you have to stop prayer if u farted during salat i.e lets say u farted, would u stop praying outright and go and do another ablution and start again or would you continue with the prayer.

i also remember a time as a family that we were saying prayers and my brother had a "fit of farts" he must have done ablution about 5 times, each time he came back and started again he let one off again. eventually my dad restrained him from getting up to do his ablution as he had done it now by 5 times already.

so what is your postulation hre.

For me by way of reasoning i say if i farted during prayer i will finsh with my prayer as long as my fart is not smelly. ( yes sorry to burst ur bubble but sssssshhhhhh! women do fart as well) for the plain reason that there is gas which occurs from movement of bowels associated with bowing and prostration which sometimes cannot be held as its an act of nature.

however fully knowing that if i wanted to start another prayer i.e night prayer i would have to start ablution again because my ablution would have been null and void for any subsequent prayer.

for clarification i should add that i hold to theory that as long as u dont nullify ablution (according to quran ( in the name of the God,): urine, feacal matter, sexual impurities, gas, then ablution is still valid and can be held for as long as one wishes, though out of ritual practices which i have come to regard as my peculiar habits, i prefer to do fresh ablution for each prayer.)

now some of my friends have argued that u must leave prayer and do ablution again but my counter arguement is that especially as with congregation prayer, leaving prayer may disrupt others prayers ( well come to think of it, so would a smelly fart)

then again when looking at it in light of quran, there is no specific mention of farting and prayer. it only talks ( God help me here) about what nullifies abluton ( see surah 5:6 and 4:43) for making it easy here are translations from diff schools of thought)

5:6
Khalifa
O you who believe, when you observe the Contact Prayers (Salat), you shall: (1) wash your faces, (2) wash your arms to the elbows, (3) wipe your heads, and (4) wash your feet to the ankles. If you were unclean due to sexual orgasm, you shall bathe. If you are ill, or traveling, or had any digestive excretion (urinary, fecal, or gas), or had (sexual) contact with the women, and you cannot find water, you shall observe the dry ablution (Tayammum) by touching clean dry soil, then rubbing your faces and hands. GOD does not wish to make the religion difficult for you; He wishes to cleanse you and to perfect His blessing upon you, that you may be appreciative.
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! when ye prepare for prayer, wash your faces, and your hands (and arms) to the elbows; Rub your heads (with water); and (wash) your feet to the ankles. If ye are in a state of ceremonial impurity, bathe your whole body. But if ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands, God doth not wish to place you in a difficulty, but to make you clean, and to complete his favour to you, that ye may be grateful.
Pickthal
O ye who believe! When ye rise up for prayer, wash you faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and lightly rub your heads and (wash) your feet up to the ankles. And if ye are unclean, purify yourselves. And if ye are sick or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have had contact with women, and ye find not water, then go to clean, high ground and rub your faces and your hands with some of it. Allah would not place a burden on you, but He would purify you and would perfect His grace upon you, that ye may give thanks.
Shakir
O you who believe! when you rise up to prayer, wash your faces and your hands as far as the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are under an obligation to perform a total ablution, then wash (yourselves) and if you are sick or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy, or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth and wipe your faces and your hands therewith, Allah does not desire to put on you any difficulty, but He wishes to purify you and that He may complete His favor on you, so that you may be grateful.
Sher Ali
O ye who believe ! when you stand up for Prayer, wash your faces, and your hands up to the elbows, and pass your wet hands over your heads and wash your feet to the ankles. And if you be unclean, purify yourselves by bathing. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women, and find not water, betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Allah desires not that HE should place you in a difficulty but HE desires to purify you and to complete HIS favour upon you, so that you may be grateful.
"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, if you rise to attend the assembly, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe you heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you are filthy, then become clean; and if you are ill or traveling or you have excreted, or you have sexually touched the women, and you could not find water, then you shall do ablution from clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands. God does not want to make any hardship over you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative.
and 4:43 is
Khalifa
O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while intoxicated, so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or contacted the women (sexually), and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Approach not prayers with a mind befogged, until ye can understand all that ye say,- nor in a state of ceremonial impurity (Except when travelling on the road), until after washing your whole body. If ye are ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from offices of nature, or ye have been in contact with women, and ye find no water, then take for yourselves clean sand or earth, and rub therewith your faces and hands. For God doth blot out sins and forgive again and again.
Pickthal
O ye who believe! Draw not near unto prayer when ye are drunken, till ye know that which ye utter, nor when ye are polluted, save when journeying upon the road, till ye have bathed. And if ye be ill, or on a journey, or one of you cometh from the closet, or ye have touched women, and ye find not water, then go to high clean soil and rub your faces and your hands (therewith). Lo! Allah is Benign, Forgiving.
Shakir
O you who believe! do not go near prayer when you are Intoxicated until you know (well) what you say, nor when you are under an obligation to perform a bath -- unless (you are) travelling on the road -- until you have washed yourselves; and if you are sick, or on a journey, or one of you come from the privy or you have touched the women, and you cannot find water, betake yourselves to pure earth, then wipe your faces and your hands; surely Allah is Pardoning, Forgiving.
Sher Ali
O ye who believe ! go not near Prayer when you are not in full possession of your senses, until you know what you are saying, nor when you are unclean, except when you are travelling along a way, until you have bathed. And if you are ill or you are on a journey while unclean, or if one of you comes from the privy or you have touched women and you find no water, then betake yourselves to pure dust and wipe therewith your faces and your hands. Surely Allah is the Effacer of sins, Forgiving,
"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, do not come near the assembly while you are drunk, until you know what you are saying. Nor dirty, except for travellers, until you wash. And if you are ill or traveling or one of you has excretion or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water: then you shall make ablution with clean soil by wiping your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.




and as one friend puts it "ablution is precourser to starting prayer". so we know that for our units of prayer we mush make sure ablution is valid i.e no urine/feacalness etc as mentioned in quran.

this was a strong subject within my group of friend and i want to open this wide up and see what my other friends thinks of this issue.

as a final note and upon wider reflection, i feel because it is not specifically mentioned i.e when u fart during prayer start again, then i feel it i not wholly important and it is left to each individual to decide when is comfy and not comfy in the sight of their God. God has been kind to us and has given us specific rules on ablution which we should do before starting any prayer however quran makes no specific rulings on while doing prayers and things happen.

what comes to mind for me and seals my overall opinion on this issue is in surah 5 verse 101- 102
which says ITNGMGMM ( this is copy and pasting from Khalifa's translation - O you who believe, do not ask about matters which, if revealed to you prematurely, would hurt you. If you ask about them in light of the Quran, they will become obvious to you. GOD has deliberately overlooked them. GOD is Forgiver, Clement.- Others before you have asked the same questions, then become disbelivers therein

for comparison purposes, other traslation are as below

5:101
Yusuf Ali
O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, God will forgive those: for God is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing.
Pickthal
O ye who believe! Ask not of things which, if they were made unto you, would trouble you; but if ye ask of them when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made known unto you. Allah pardoneth this, for Allah is Forgiving, Clement.
Shakir
O you who believe! do not put questions about things which if declared to you may trouble you, and if you question about them when the Quran is being revealed, they shall be declared to you; Allah pardons this, and Allah is Forgiving, Forbearing.
Sher Ali
O ye who believe ! ask not about things which, if revealed to you, would cause you trouble, though if you ask about them while the Qur'an is being sent down they will be revealed to you. Allah has left them out on purpose. And Allah is Most Forgiving and Forbearing.
"Progressive Muslims"
O you who believe, do not ask about things which, if revealed to you, would harm you; and if you ask about them after the Quran has been sent down, then they will become clear to you. God pardons for them, and God is Forgiving, Compassionate.

5:102
Yusuf Ali
Some people before you did ask such questions, and on that account lost their faith.
Pickthal
A folk before you asked (for such disclosures) and then disbelieved therein.
Shakir
A people before you indeed asked such questions, and then became disbelievers on account of them.
Sher Ali
A people before you asked about such things, but then they became disbelievers therein.
"Progressive Muslims"
A people before you had asked the same, then they became rejecters in it.

so i leave it to you for contemplation..... what do you think?

fats

'Gay man' disinterred in Senegal

This article if from BBC Africa news..ref link..http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/africa/8032754.stm

Now it beggers belief that after buring a body that people want to exhume it
WHY??:- because the body -from my understand of the article- was a living person porputed to be gay or practicing homosexuality..
LAUGHing MY Head OUT LOUD.
Seriously..It is very hard not to have an opinion and not to judge.. so i want to carefully examine this..as far as my insane brain will allow me to...

• is it a case of that the "dead gay body" will proposition other straight or gay men in the grave and urge them to perform whattever acts they do?
  
• is it a case of the "dead gay body" will hinder the rest of the "muslim dead bodies- " from attaining mercy of God
  
• Do they have PROOF that the "dead Gay body" was actually Gay.. Not i say PROOF because from reading the article, it is muslim people that have an objection to having the person buried there.. and as with anything before you can accuse someone of a lewd act of behaviour you need PROOF.. no PROOF no ACCUSATIONS!!!
  
• Can the people verify that other people buried there were not gay/whatever... Do they want to exhume them as well?
  

Now, I dont know anything about gays/non gays or homosexuality or whatever have ytou.. nor do i want to know..
but i know about tolerism.. My own definition of this is " understanding that each person has his/her own demons/battles to contend with.. and not judging them on those battles but rather exercising patience and inspiration that The Creator will guide them right and hopefully that they too will do what is right by them and their Creator.."Once you are dead, you are dead...nothing coming, nothing going..

This world makes me laugh sometimes..I can only say that : "God! Me with my own battles/deamons that i want rid off, God be merciful unto me and help me to stive in your cause. Help me to rememeber Thee always and to remember to hold on to Thee, even in the bleakest of times and situations".

I am also veered into remembering what i heard in the news recently that it costs an average of £3000 to bury a person.. I was like "WHAAAAAAT" if i had 3 grand, defo!! it aint gonna be for burying dead person.. imagine Dat!! i am quite sure when i was born, my folks didnt fork out 3 grand to celebrate me into life.. apart from frying puff puff and making akara, what else have you...

Bloody Heck..

What are they burying.. people are dying of hunger starvation and here are some people wasting 3 grand to bury person.. as if the buried person will be thanking them for it.. once you are dead you are dead. Your earthly body doesnt matter.

Wether you shroud it in expensive white brocade or you just reuse baby napkins.. still the same thing. Wether you lie in gold encrusted coffin or you just use degradable bin bag .. it is still the same thing

The ants and creepy crawlies that descend upon your body and munch on - is still the same- only hang up is dat you is gonna give them hard work to do if you lie in a coffin encrusted with gold..

God sufficies for me.. He is the best Protector 30/04/09

Earlier Today i woke up about to say my morning prayer and as usual the mind wonders to some things.. some focused and others at times.. God guide and help me with that...
for what ever reason, a voice called to me "Hasbuna llahu wa nima-al wa killlu"..
I blocked it out lest it was a distraction for me during payer..

I remember tthe saying but i have never bothered with what it meant..it is a saying from young when young alfa's gather round for prayers and praises afterwards..
what i remember them saying is ""hasbuna llahu wa nima-al wa killu"". "Wa nimma maola wa nimma nasirru". i now know Nassir means victory ( from surah Nasir.. "Idha jaa a nassru llahi wal fathu".. "when triumph and victory comes from God")but i am not sure of the meaning of the second part.. am not sure where it is got from..

Any ways,

I gots to reading the quran.. where i am at now is surah 3.. al-imran.. and the part i was reading that morning ... albeit a bit lazily read the words..
Lo and Behold..."Hasbuna llahu wa nimma wa killu" was at the end of one of the verses...
(2:173 to be precise)
I froze for a second and i bowed my head in adoration to the Almighty God who never ceases to amaze me, never ceases to astound me or to inspire me...

The meaning therein is.. "God suffiices for us( me) He is the best Protector"...

remember when i wrote that spill about " no weapon fashioned against me shall prosper" well... the best resolve and ending for that issue will be "God suffices for me.. He is the best Protector"...

truth

What ever thing i read,hear or see.
Any good therein.. My lord Guide me to it
Any truth therein, My Lord, Direct me to it
Any bad therein, My Lord, Keep it from me
Any Falseness therein, My Lord Save me from it..

You alone Direct and Guide to the truth
You alone Insipre and Give meaning

interesting conversations...this life never ceases to amuse me...

Start
Salam everyone, Could someone who is knowledgeble please explain in simple English what is the issue with these counts? I've read about them before but can't seem to grasp it. When a situation comes up where I have an opportunity to talk about the message and the miracle, I have in the past sent people to submission.org or masjidtucson. .org. Should I not be doing this because of this count business? Also, some of you may already know this but there are also mistakes claimed in Appendix 15 regarding the multiples of 19 in the confirmation of the 5 prayers and the Friday prayer. I have confirmed this for myself and have brought it other people's attention in the community but they seem reluctant to make changes to the appendix. I find this unsettling because in my dreams of bringing the message and the miracle to the main stream media I feel all claims should be absolutely correct. Peace and God Bless,

Reply
salamit is all interesting again.. a point i feel we are missing or might be missing is that 19 or not.. it is belief in God alone that matters. one only has to read the quran to see that... we are holding on to miracles i.e miracle of 19. the quran is clear in terms of prayer i feel and as long as you hold on to God and uphold Gods scriptures.. Quran and all... then God wiling everything becomes clear... yes it is good to have clarified and honest statements made about and in refeence to the quran.. i feel. personally i dont understand the 19 thing and have never made an attempt to understand bar counting the no of times out lips touch in fatiah... but using the 19 thing to justify everything else in life may not be ideal or right... it may be but i dont know that. as i see it, the 19 may be a valid evidence for the authenticity of the Quran... but it is authenticity of salat.. which by the way is authentic on its own because going nac history and worship lines.. it is a practice that is always constant. bar all the new formations and interpretations that humans tend to impose on themselves.. or zakat or anything else for that matter... God guide us all and guide us to the truth.. salam fats
i am quite intrugued though about what you say so if i may have missed it earlier apologies but can you bring our attention to your findings...if you say you have brought it to the communties atention and they have done nothing.. open it up to everybody and let everyone see what it is you say.. there may be someone in this forum who may help shed light on the issue for you...the apendixes i feel were a persons/group of persons understandin g and take on some topics in the quran as such changes to the apendixes may mean getting all the people who contributed to it together to agree on the change and get it done.. this my or may not be possible.. salam

Reply
from your statements repeated below I gather you do not necessarily believe there is a mathematical miracle based on the number 19 in the Quran, and do not accept Rashad Khalifa as a messenger of God. Your statements which caught my attention: ”the apendixes i feel were a persons/group of persons understandin g and take on some topics in the quran as such changes to the apendixes may mean getting all the people who contributed to it together to agreeon the change and get it done.. this my or may not be possible..”
”a point i feel we are missing or might be missing is that 19 or not.. it is belief in God alone that matters. one only has to read the quran to see that... we are holding on to miracles i.e miracle of 19.” ”personally i dont understand the 19 thing and have never made an attempt to understand bar counting the no of times out lips touch in fatiah ” ”as i see it, the 19 may be a valid evidence for the authenticity of the Quran...but it is authenticity of salat.. which by the way is authentic on its own ” What you believe or not is of course entirely up to you. We are all free to believe what we want, or not, and nobody on this forum has anything invested in your choice,ither way. The thing is, that this particular forum, which is by invitation only, is for people who believe in the miracle of the Quran and have accepted the> mesesngership of Rashad Khalifa. As we have already accepted this new information from God and are reaping the benefits of increased and clarified understanding because of it, we wish to advance from this point forward, not go backwards. Therefore we made this a forum only for people who have passed this point of erification. If that was not made clear enough before, our apologies. Let it be made clear enough now If you feel that your statements have been misinterpreted, I welcome your correction of the same.

Reply
salam my comments and personal opinion are thus as i wrote so I am not sure which part you dont understand.. but i am afraid to say that you gather wrongly.apeendices i gather were the work of rashad as well as contributions from other people.. according to the apendices themselves .. hence any alteration to them i feel should rightly involve those who contributed to it then get them all to agree on alteration and correct them whenb you have revised editions 1/2/3/4 them i can also safely assume that alterations have been made in the past this is my egenral observation
19 miracle is something which fascinated me but no something i personally can rwalte to.. i did not say i dont believe in it, i said it is something i do not understand.. there is a difference.. praise God that i am able to read the wquran and from my heart i know that it is the right thing for me: worship God alone and all religious laws according to the Quran.. i personally dont require validity as experience has taught me that my soul/heart knows validity from what it reads and understands( God willing i will sit and count the thing myself in the near future) because God will make it clear for me and all praises be to God that He has.. my statements have not been misrepresented. ..as i was clear what i wrote i will beg your indulgence to say that you are the one reading it wrong.. salam fats ps: having read it back i am amazed to say fats is the only person i know evene with spell checker who still gets everything spelt wrongly

Reply
What part did I read wrong?
I stated that you do not beeve in the miracle of 19 – which you admit to. How can you, when you have not looked at it yet? I stated that you do not accept Rashad Khalifa as a messenger of God – which your statement that the Appendices ”were a persons/group of persons understandin g and take on some topics” indicates. It is either that or that you have not been bothered to look at it yet properly. Had you read the appendices, verified and accepted the information in them, you would not have said what you did about the contents, and you would know that the contents are not negotiable or adjustable, as it was conveyed through a commissioned messenger of God (there were some small contributions in terms of mathematical observations - some of which were later found to be wrong, and were thus removed - nothing else besides proof reading). Your take on all of this, as I entioned, may very well be because you have not taken the time to look at it yet. From what you are saying it seems however that you feel neither an urgency, nor a necessity in so doing. This strikes me as odd for someone who believes in God, and especially odd for someone who claims to believe in the Quran. That would be like a Christian hearing about Jesus being back, preaching in the church next door, deciding it is not important to go and listen. I raised this question to you, as one of the critierias to be a member of this forum is to have passed the point of verification of these facts. We made it so, as we know that these facts serve as a filter to distinguish those who believe from those who don’t (3:82), as well as those who harbor doubts who say it is not important, or ’so what’ (74:31). And if the simple facts of themiracle listed in the Appendices cannot attract enough of
your attention to convince you, of a miracle God describes
as ten times the miracle of all the previous ones, what
could you possibly share with us, and what could we possibly
say to you, that would be useful to either If you wish to stay a member of this forum, I urge you to look at the miracle and get back to us with your take on it as soon as possible.

Reply
Salam AlaykumI dont understand it does not mean i dont believe in it..by my comprehension i can accept a fact without nevessarily understanding it...re apendicssare just what i have stated...and by the way.. dont assume i have not had a look. i must have had a look to notice that they were contributors to somer facts presented therein.. hence my logic on it... i have the second edition of the rashad translated quran so any omission/addition i am not aware of..as thankfylly I have eyes to read and ears to hear and brain to understandto verify that the worship of God is about God alone and the Quran as source of religious law.. do not be so hasty as to presume that we all have to follow verification on the same level..as i said previously, my soul/heart knows what is the truth from God ( which by the way is culmination of using my faculties to disern what is right from false) and as i leave and breathe God help me towards accepting it and following it...my opinions as thus i do not see any need to change it..as to being a part in the forum... it is ur choice if u want to remove or not.. doesnt add anything to my worship of God or subtract anything from my worship practices to God.. i enjoy the forum becos it given me things to ponder on re:different people different ways and i learn from each post so really its up to you...as previously stated i have said what i said ( not sure which part you are taking out of context bcos it is clear to me)and i stand where i stand.. God being my witness and my judge..ps: it is not you or anyone who decides who believes or does not believe.. True belief in God and His message comes from God and is by His grace...as such we are all racing in each our own ways to attaining the status of believers...though i am aware of a point you may be making in terms of this.fats

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Samun Alaykum
You neither believe in it, or not, even though, as you now add in your latest response, you may have already looked at it. Either way, you have not made up your mind about it, which is a criteria to be a member of this forum.
You were invited to clarify your position regarding this, but instead are restating your original attitude in downsizing the significance of the miracle. Even though you are using subtle words in so doing, and even though you state your commitment to God alone and being a believer in the Quran alone, you are posting ideas on this forum that the miracle of 19 does not really matter that much, that you don’t really need it, and that people are spending too much time on it. All of these attitudes are completely unquranic.
”a point i feel we are missing or might be missing is that 19 or not.. it is belief in God alone that matters. one only has to read the quran to see that... we are holding on to miracles i.e miracle of 19.” ”personally i dont understand the 19 thing and have never made an attempt to understand bar counting the no of times out lips touch in fatiah... ” ”as i see it, the 19 may be a valid evidence for the authenticity of the Quran...but it is authenticity of salat.. which by the way is authentic on its own ”
”my soul/heart knows what is the truth from God ( which by the way is culmination of using my faculties to disern what is right from false)...”
”my opinions as thus i do not see any need to change it..”

You are welcome to reapply to this forum when you have had time to properly verify the facts and state your position on them.

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salam alaykum..
but i am findnd this rather interesting...
nd point of note my personal opinion is my personal opinion as i am sure every one has theirs...
like i stated.before i do not need to understand the 19 before accepting that worshipping God is about God alone..if thats how it worked for u then good for you...

"Yu were invited to clarify your position regarding this, but instead are restating your original attitude in downsizing the significance of the miracle. Even though you are using subtle words in so doing, and even though you state your commitment to God alone and being a believer in the Quran alone, you are posting ideas on this forum that the miracle of 19 does not really matter that much, that you don’t really need it, and that people are spending too much time on it. All of these attitudes are completely unquranic"

i didnt realise i was being subtle.. because i am as clear with my writing as i clear in my head Thank God...
so let me clarify here, are you expecting everyone to have the same thought process?
will be better to read my postings with a clear mind not any hidden agenda..
if you or anyone dont agree with my comments then fair enuff. iam not expecting you to neither am i expecting you to.. is that un-subtle enuff.. postings are there i guess to bunce ideas of each person and God willing maybe learn something new..
as always i only speak fo rmyself, on my experiences and my understanding...
what is unquranic about that expect speaking the truth and holding onto god alone as that...
i wrote a whole splii there about the 19 but really on aftertough i am realising that you want me to account for myself re: how i can believe in God without necesarrily nderstanding the 19 miracle... but really it dawns on me that i cannot and will not stoop that low as to give you justification for my faith.. which is what you are asking...
first because i would want to know if you have asked everyone of this or am i just being singled out because you dont like what i have posted...
second because really i have already done that in my earlier replies to you.. much to my amazement...
in anycase both will imply that you are jdge and jury and neither of which apply. so i have deleted it...

"his approach and attitude is exposing arrogance and contributes to spreading poison and doubts. We have plenty of that outside this forum. THIS forum was created for people who have already passed the point of verification of these earth shattering facts and miracle, who have a clear mind and heart about this matters, so we can discuss other things here which will help us move forward, not spend time discussing things we have already passed a long time ago, which can only drag us back. "

arrgoance.. hmmm.. that is a new one... spreading poison/doubt.. who have i spread poisin and doubt to...
if you feel i have.. please Hold on to God and dont let go... because that is what we are invited to do.. I am clear that i want to hold on to God alon.. are you..?
and dear, what makes you think i have not passed the "point of verification of these matters earth shattering...." you seem to think yo uknow all the answers and have all the hands on everyones thought process...
why on earth would you imply that i d not have a clear mind or heart about...
like i said this is rather interesting...
God be praised that i know when i am from, know where i have been and thank God know where i want to go...
so really in all honesty ............
since you have a handle on everything you will decide what mkes us as a community progreaa forward or what makes us regress...arogance my dear....but i am glad i understand that is your personal opinion so good luck to you...
fats

This life amazes me because as usual it does...authocraty and power is when you leave no room for possibilities outside your own.. where you expect people to follow one norm.. yours..

the wor os God will always be the same whichever way you look at it, try to distort it or comprehend it.. word of God is the word of God.. and as i dont answer to any man. Gods will be done..
afterall, it is God i am asked to worship and his laws i am asked to upohold..

for those who require proof of Gods dominance good luck to them and for those who dont good luck to then as well.

in gods manifestation there is no mistake, no count error and no ambiguesness,, There is room for everyone and possibilities are endless.

like i said, there may not be a one size fits all,, we have to account that we are all individual each with our ous circumstances.. what happends for one may not necessarily be the same for the other.. the sooner we aret realising that the better..
The end result will always be the end result.. but getting there may involve trips, jumps, straigh forward or even wuru wuru to the answer..

organised religion/group/whateva name you call it.. leaves something to be desired,, especially when there is no room for expression.. if that expression does not fit in with you you want to fit in with...

everything happens for a reason as such this was meant to matrilise..
as always God is the one I hold on to and all my guidance and clarification is the the quran from God as is also in other scriptures of God, Oldtestament, Gospel of Jesus, Psalms..

and if I hold on to God alone i am most certain i will not fail...
fats


something else comes to mind...
gods system is always the same..
i.e look at jesus and his diciples... it was after jesus that we had gospel of mark, peter etc... Dem say jesus said that......some grave claims were made.. which were not made when jesus was alive o... some people choosing to believe in Paul/mark his diciples over what Jesus himself has said/brought from God.. as such we have different factions of chrustianity...

look at mohammed and his followers... it was their take that divided arab islam to shia sunni and whatever have you....Den say mohammed say that......some grave claims were made.. which were not made when mohammed was alive...some people choosing to believe his hadith.. his sayings that they heard other people saying over the word of God.. as such we have factions those who choose God alone vs those who choose messenger alone vs those who just mixthe two

now look at rashad Khalifa.. it was after him that we are having different people and their different takes.. Dem say that he say that...there are editions of the Quran..

now where in earth does one have editions of the word of God.. but rather these editions are in the appendices.. which man has written...
really in Gods words there is no mistake but rather it is in man and his actions that we find mistakes and erros

some people choosing to upholsd his hadith,.. which is his saying over the word of God...

really Gods system is always the same..

you knw what i call God.. "teacher of the Quran"... He is the one who will teach me, can guide me and provide meaning for me.. anyone else who think they can do this.. good luck to them.. but rather i choose God over anybody else.. Gods word is out there.. make of it what you will

but on a logicall level.. despite what ever else we have.. if you hold on to the word of God and god alone.. then no need for this nonsence...

Who else but Thee

Who else but Thee can Guide and Protect me
Who else but Thee to Inspire and Encourage me
Who is like Thee that can Comfort and Soothe me
Subhanaka La Huma Rabb-il Aalamin

Who else but thee knows my heart and my longings
Who else but thee sees my suffering and anguish
Who else but thee surely will guide me to the truth
Subhanaka La Huma Rabb-il Aalamin

Who else but Thee is my King and Saviour
Who else but Thee can Provide and Grant me
Who else but thee is my Sustainer and Guardian
Subhanaka La Huma Rabb-il Aalamin

Who is like Thee Possesor of All Authourity
Who is like Thee Eternal and Ever Lasting
Who is like thee Preserver and Sustainer
Subhanaka La Huma Rabb-il Aalamin

Who is like Thee O one who cares for me
Who is like Thee My provider and and Protector
Who else but Thee means this much to me
Subhanaka La Huma Rabb-il Aalamin

"Subhanaka la Huma Rabb-il Aalamin"
Be you Glorified my God, Lord of the Universe..

buzzy bee

wow!!

I have been buzzzzzzy dis april...

Anyhow.. God be praised, a lot of issues highlighted and resolved..

very testing month it was for me... a lot of emotions i have been thru a lot os things happening underground as well as surface.

i broke down visibly.. emotionally spent and drained

God lifted me UP and i tried again

A lot of rejections enough to deflate the amazon spirit

God provided and made up for it

But i am able to say Thanks my Lord for the journey, for the learning and the realisation

I learnt a new arabic word.. something i was searching for but was right under my nose..

"Be you Glorified my Lord" which roughly translates "Subhanaka La Huma"

I drove a new car Vauxhall Insignia to Birmingham and back... need cushions to prop me up tho...

My friend had a baby Girl and was in my house while she was in labour..it was very interesting to watch it live and direct...

I ate fresh Yam..." Isu" for the first time in 9 years...

I signed up again for race for life.. bound to be fun

all in all, My Lord i am grateful for everything...

No weapon fashioned against me shall prosper.... expect ordained by God

"If GOD touches you with a hardship, none can relieve it except He. And when He blesses you, no force can prevent His grace. He bestows it upon whomever He chooses from among His servants. He is the Forgiver, Most Merciful." 10:108

I was looking for somehting else and i came across this verse..

Do you remember when our parents will go,, it was he , she, dem people.. who are doing this that that against you... They dont want you to succeed etc bla bla bla
At least sometimes my mum has said that...
it makes me laugh you know..

what a powerful statement it makes - the above verse..
and i can understand it to mean, if God willed something for you then so be it..
I am reminded by another verse "Inama amruhu idha arada shayan an ya kula lahu Kun Fa Ya Kun".. ( arabic a bit hazy sorry)Surah 34 ( second to the last verse)
loosely without checking means.. "For anything to be done all He (God) has to say is Be and It is..."

so at all times God is always in control and as He has designed, so it shall be..

This is particularly true for me in that i am grateful to God that i can recognise that God's will be done so when those "nagging" "nipping" voices in my head start to bother me with weird suggestions that "maybe dis person doesnt like you and wants to do juju for you".. bla bla etc.. I can always overide with logic and say.. if that is the will of my God then so be it.. for in my times of triumph and tribulation I will always turn to my Lord.. In times of happiness and sadness I will still turn to my Lord. even when things dont go my way, even after longing and pining for ages and it still doesnt swing in my favour, I will still turn to the Lord.. For the Lord will always provide in His own time when He knows it will benefit me..

So no person or being can do nada to me except unless my God has ordained that they shall, No one can stop my flow unless My God has ordained so.. and if it is that way, Then i guess my Lord sets me a test to see if i will run helter skelter or if i will still remember Him..
God willing regardless of the test, I always turn to my God.. The Almighty..

Remember the scripture where solomon said.. "This is a test whereby my Lord tests me to see if i am appreciative or not"...

Well, in my own way i can say all these things are a test for me to see despite the adversity and hardship if i will still hold on to my Lord

May God be praised, always and eternally by me and by every being..

My Lord, for real, direct me to be appreciative of the blessings that you have bestowed on me and to do the righteous works that pleases thee.Admit me by thy mercy into the company of your rightous servants,
For even I in fields so broad, some duties I may fulfill. And i shall ask for no reward except to serve Thee still.
Let thy name be forever on my lips, my every breath my every thought, Let me never ever forget to praise you, exalt you, remember you..
For indeed you have never forgotten me, indeed you are always there for me..
though i may have ran away from you, for years and years, I come to thee in totality seeking thy ways and thy ways only. Seeking thy truth and guidance.

Who else but Thee will guide and inspire me
Who else but Thee can provide for me
Who else but Thee O Lord can I turn too

For all praise is Yours
All authority, Kingship and Glory
In this life and in the hereafter
Be you Glorified most Gracious Lord,

ps: i always feel knd of smug and sheepish when i blurb all gooey like this.. but this is me.. F.A.O..warts and all..