i have posted it here because there are some ideas i agree with in amongst the emails received.
i have not sought any permission from anyone but i reckon as they felt free to include my email address i.e cc'd me into their mails of ongoing spat, then there is no ownership of the emails and i am free to do as i wish.
but nevertheless this is for my reflection in future years to come .
i don't know what started the emails but i guess this was the opener as this is the first i received - from the contents i believe this person CCCC had sent an email to KKKK and this was his reply which someone thought " oh i had better share this with me because it is interesting""(sarcy tone) and what culminated was a barrage of emails - unsolicited mind - left right and center back and forth and people adding their two pennies worth. i thought to send an email asking that i be left out of this kind of back and forth emails but i thought better of it - don't get me wrong i asked to be on the mailing list - but thsi issue got out of hand quickly on reading the many emails i received there clearly for me was an intent of ridiculing each other and hidden agendas coming out - i didnt sign up for this - its good to share but please dont share your hatred and mistrust of others with me.. just the good stuff.. it does not cost me to delete an email if it gets too much for me to deal with - but really people should have some decorum and understand what is right to cc people into and what is not right to cc people into..
Peace be upon you CCCC,
God willing this mail finds you and your family well.
Thank you for sharing about your current religious pursuit. Its good to know that you will continue to seek the right understanding. That being the case, I am happy to share some information that will help you God willing.
After the passing of God’s messenger, several people came up with ideas about how the messenger was wrong and how they should “correct” or improve upon what they failed to appreciate was an unexpected gift of guidance that came into their lives. Most of these ideas vanished while a few are still struggling for traction 25 years later. Meanwhile, as per His promise, the religion God wants the world to follow is being established, despite Satan’s attempts to prevent it (9:33). The reason for God sending a messenger was to confirm and reestablish the truth (for final), not send the world back into confusion with a new set of ideas. Does it make sense that God will send a messenger to confuse or make people practice their religion wrong? That would be mocking the institution of a messenger isn’t it?
One of Satan’s favorite attempts at three Salats is by misrepresenting God’s system of giving us information from the Quran. Yes, we all agree that the Quran is fully detailed. But because only three Salats are mentioned by name, it does not exclusively mean two others don’t exist (2:238). God tells us that the Quran is the ‘source,’ which means that it is the point where you start and God will make you get you all the answers you need from there, even if you sometimes don’t see it spelled out word for word in there (5:101).
As I have always seen it happen; people forget, or never understood, or turn unappreciative of God’s phenomenally efficient system of teaching from the Quran. This system is clearly explained in Appendix 9 by God’s messenger of the Covenant [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix9.html]. Whatever the messenger has explained in the Appendix is from the Quran, so please examine it carefully in the right context. I take this opportunity to remind you that it is the duty of every believer to trust, obey, uphold, and not place their opinion above God’s messenger, no matter how good another explanation may appear (4:64, 8:46, 49:1, 57:25). After you have studied Appendix 9, please do read the article at this link [http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/salat_quran_source.html]. We had it written to specifically help people get a further grasp on the subject of knowing how to get the religious duties from the Quran.
After you finish studying this information, you may wish to think about how come you are doing the steps of your practices anyway? Are you certain that you can point out every step written in Quran? For example, where is it written exactly what you should say or do in the Salat? Can you show it to me in the Quran? How do know you must do 7 rounds counter clockwise when you visit the Kab’ah? Can you show it in the Quran? Or can you clearly show the 2.5% Zakat system written in the Quran? You see, one way or another, you have to work with an assumption and already existing system. Then you use the Quran to confirm what’s right to do/continue or discard as a corruption. Ashraf and Edip are applying the same concept but surreptitiously diverting you from realizing this.
You see, its easy to first gain knowledge from other people’s works and then suggest changes. But would they originally be able to show you the system in Quran with no previous idea about it? Theirs is a simple trick I learned a long time ago when dealing with such people, namely: “Don’t get fooled by what they tell you—look for what they are not telling you.”
Please also don’t get misled when they tell you that by “follow Quran alone,” Dr. Khalifa meant that you should disregard the information he was authorized to give you with basis from the Quran. If that was the case, ask Ashraf and Edip to take down their websites and leave you alone with your Quran to figure things out. But Edip not talking about himself and not ending his constant challenge of God’s messenger (63:4)? Wow, that will be the day, but not so soon I think because 34:5, 17:16have to apply.
> You wrote “I sincerely wish to follow the Quran alone and of course worship God alone and I hope God willing that in doing that I will be following the message of Rashad.”
That’s great CCCC, so let’s reflect upon a couple of aspects here.
The religious practices (rites) are a great gift from God, extremely critical to soul growth. God has decreed the format or else they wouldn’t be defined as rites. Therefore, you either do the rites the way God designed them or you don’t (22:32). If everyone is left free to do as they believe, there will be no unity, no discipline, and no regard for a religious system decreed by God. And then it’s no different from how the world is at present—disunited in religion anyway. God sent His messenger to unite and set the system right, so think carefully if you are helping the process or disrupting it. Probably you have forgotten the lessons of Appendix 33 [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix33.html] and the Introduction [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/introduction.html]. This may be a good time to catch up on them.
Do remember that in God’s system, there are no grey areas. You either do 5 Salats or you dont. You either say “Allahu Akbar” and give right-left salaams, or you don’t, and so on. One configuration will make you succeed and the other will not. An in-between or “both are okay” option is for the doubtful and compromisers. The messenger was sent to show and confirm what is right. If it was okay to do either or whatever else you wish, the messenger would have confirmed this and maybe shared a basis from the Quran a long time ago. But he did not. Surely God will not send a messenger to miss this huge element for soul growth, right?
Also remember that all messengers apply a “walk the talk” teaching technique. This means that they practice the system themselves and take responsibility for asking everyone to do like them. So if 5 Salats and other components of the rites practiced by the messenger are wrong, it can only mean that the messenger and those who are doing as he did are getting zero soul growth and will end up in Hell. Are you prepared to confirm this?
When you have the time CCCC, look up some of the information the messenger shared in his publications and videos. Try to appreciate the tremendous wisdom and wealth of never expected guidance in that information. God willing you will realize that he assures that you will not be doing wrong if you do the practices the way he confirmed/did them. He also makes it clear that if you do it any other way you will be the loser (4:115). Are Edip and Ashraf giving you the same assurance that their system is the right way to Heaven while the messenger and those who follow him will go to Hell (45:23)?
> You worte: “I don't intend to generalise any groups as idol worshippers or Satan's agents but of course I do intend to be cautious and ask God for guidance during this time….”
God bless you for your fairness and sincerity. But while I appreciate your position, experience has shown me the need to be pragmatic about this. You see, the fact is that a person is either a believer or a disbeliever. A person is either with God and His messenger or not. If you challenge God’s messenger and go against what he was sent to establish, then you are an agent of Satan. There is simply no compromise on this. Its just like with the traditional Muslims who are in a state of disbelief. If you do not acknowledge this fact then you cannot be an ally of God. However, this does not mean that you condemn these people personally or don’t have amicable relations with them. What they do is between them and God but there is a cut-off point for what you will accept or do along with them. God allows you to take this call (3:119, 4:109, 9:17).
Submitters do experience misunderstandings on their journey of learning the lessons of the Quran. God guides the true seekers to the right understanding eventually. But with Ashraf and Edip the situation is different. What they are doing is trying to disrupt God’s religious practices which directly affects the path to salvation. God commands us to defend the truth and help people realize what Satan is trying to. If I don’t help you recognize Satan’s agents, I will not be supporting God and His messenger (47:7, 48:10). It will be the same kind compromise if you try to suppress the fact that traditional Muslims are practicing/advocating the word of Satan!
At this time CCCC, I can understand if you don’t gauge the depth of what Im saying. To get the right understanding, you have to first know why all this is happening.
You see, it is God’s system to allow Satan to present his point of view. People have to make exits or else you will not have the core group that God wants (22:52, 47:32). So how do submitters get misled? They get exposed to Satan’s message through people who appear to be knowledgeable with their eloquence (63:4). Their challenge has to appear formidable or else you will not consider it. The corruption has to come from within where you least expect it because you have already crossed the barrier of corruption that comes from the traditional Muslims.
Think about it. Who will play the role of delivering deceit at this level? If not the traditional disbelievers or Edip/Ashraf and others like them, then who? Surely Satan cannot be waiting 25-30 years for the ideal opportunity to make his move. He started back then, even during the messenger’s time but you just don’t know it. Once again, please don’t get misled easily. Their claim to worship God alone and follow Quran alone means nothing just like those who claim to be righteous are not. You just have be strong enough to come to terms with the reality (58:22, 11:113).
> You wrote: “I currently find myself agreeing with most of the information on his site and in the English translation of the Quran by Edip…”
For this, you may like to look at the third last para of this link (starts with “Itis a great blessing…)[http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/rashad_khalifa_summary.html] I feel you have missed realizing that Rashad Khalifa did not do a word for word literal translation. He often explained the broad context of the verse (in a simple manner) keeping in mind a varied future global audience. And how did you determine that Edip’s translation is right? And can you really compare the wisdom and information that is provided in Rashad Khalifa’s Authorized English Version of Quran? Anytime you wish to share something from Edip’s translation which has brought more value or changed your life, please do. However, know that you will also need to provide verifiable proof and basis accordingly. You will also need to simultaneously show if or how the messenger’s rendering of the same verses have retarded or misled you in your spiritual path. I could give you more insights on this topic but lets keep it for another time.
God willing I have been able to provide you enough information for you think about. Normally, I would have left it at the first section about the system from the Quran which is usually enough for most people. I have enjoyed our respectful email exchanges over the past couple of years. I just sense that you need some more information at the crossroad you are at. Besides, if you can read up so much content on two websites and change your practices so quickly, then surely you can read up this if you really want to find the truth .
Ive seen lots of people at your stage, and many people come and go out of submission, CCCC. Some who have gone have led miserable lives, but of course, what you do with your soul is up to you. It just does not make sense that anyone can be a loser by doing what God asks you to do through His messenger (57:25). And now, before I end, I would like to strongly recommend that you read two articles from the November 1989 Submitter’s Perspective published by God’s messenger two months before he was martyred. These are titled Hypocrites Proclaim: “We Do Not Need A Messenger” & “Divine Proclamation Through Gabriel: Like the time of Noah: Only those who stand with God's messenger will be saved. [Click this link to get themhttp://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/sp/1989/nov/page3.html]. You should also see his last conference speech where he asks a challenger if she does the Contact Prayer like him. The video is at:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8u_jHZxZHro Watch from the beginning but the specific section Im referring to is between 28:00 and 33:00. Dr. Khalifa could give these assurances because he had the divine authority to. Maybe you should check if Edip and Ashraf are giving you the same assurances as in the articles and video. Remember that the consequences are enormously detrimental for invoking false guarantees in God’s name (6:93).
With best wishes and may God guide you to the right decision.
there was a reply to this and this is the part i found interesting - i have included my own twopence worth in bold at the bottom
Peace All,
Before I start to address, God willing, the content of the email from KKKK/JJJ I want to say that I used to think the same as many of you, in fact, I was shocked that there had been any split in the original Tucson group of Submitters. I assumed that this was it, no need to think about anything, an easy way, just follow and I'll end up in Paradise. -
But I thought about it and the more I thought the more I wondered why? Since the only way I discovered Submission was through questioning my (shia) religion and (sunni) teachings I knew the importance of questioning. Without questions, how do we get answers? What if we are just blindly following without using our God-given reason (AQL - arabic) to verify all the information? Doesn't that make us like the previous generations who just believed because of social pressures or believed because they were told to. Questioning the split between Sunni and Shia led me, Praise God, to submission.org and my journey to being here, therefore I chose to question.
Anybody who claims that they don't have questions are, in my opinion, only lying to themselves. This is not to mean that we just follow our wishful thinking or ego, but to think and use reason and evidence is what matters. Otherwise how different are we to the Sunnis, Shias, Christians, Hindu, Buddhists and whole host of other 'religions' out there?
You may have already decided not to read on, you may think that you don't need this email, that is fine, but if you are sure of your position, what harm are my questions/answers going to have? They should only strengthen your faith and you may think I'm off the right path. But maybe you'll find some of the thoughts I have warrant investigation, and maybe you'll be interested enough to look for yourself.
[17:36] You shall not accept any information, unless you verify it for yourself. I have given you the hearing, the eyesight, and the brain, and you are responsible for using them.
Let's have a look at the email:
"After the passing of God’s messenger, several people came up with ideas about how the messenger was wrong and how they should “correct” or improve upon what they failed to appreciate was an unexpected gift of guidance that came into their lives. Most of these ideas vanished while a few are still struggling for traction 25 years later. Meanwhile, as per His promise, the religion God wants the world to follow is being established, despite Satan’s attempts to prevent it (9:33)."
The problem with this statement is that the guidance is not from Rashad, God is the only One who guides us. Rashad could not guide anybody. THIS IS A FACT I SUPPORT WHOLEFULLY
[5:16] With it, GOD guides those who seek His approval. He guides them to the paths of peace, leads them out of darkness into the light by His leave, and guides them in a straight path.
Also, why should we assume that Rashad is infallible. Rashad made numerous mistakes throughout his time as a messenger and corrected as many as he could in the time he was alive. The very fact that he was still in the process of producing a new translation of the Quran should be a clue that the previous translation needed refining. Why shouldn't believers make corrections if we see problems. We should not forget that Rashad, in his time, made huge strides to purifying Islam/Submission from the influences of Hadith and Sunna and other false doctrines. This purification process needs to continue, not remain forever static. I DON'T KNOW ABOUT MISTAKES RK MADE BUT ON MY OWN I FIND IN QURAN TRANSLATION OMMISIONS AND A CHOICE USE OF WORDS THAT IS NOT CONSISTENT - SEE MY PREV THOUGHTS/POSTS ON THIS
"The reason for God sending a messenger was to confirm and reestablish the truth (for final), not send the world back into confusion with a new set of ideas. Does it make sense that God will send a messenger to confuse or make people practice their religion wrong? That would be mocking the institution of a messenger isn’t it?"
It seems that KKKK is unsure as to whether it is for final or not as he has put this assertion in brackets. It is true that God sends messengers to confirm the truth and to reestablish it. Is that not what Rashad did? Rashad said to follow the Quran, the whole Quran and nothing but Quran. This is an establishment of the truth. Not only that but in accordance with the prophecy in 3:81 he brought a powerful evidence of God's existence and the Authenticity of the ARABIC QURAN, through code 19. - THE QURAN IS THE TRUTH THIS IS GODS MESSAGE TO US AND THIS IS WHAT WE SHOULD FOLLOW.
It is interesting that his second point, a question this time, is exactly the argument of Sunnis and Shias, with regard to Muhammad. They say, surely God wouldn't send a messenger to confuse things and make people practice the wrong religion, but afterwards they made him and idol an started to. They also try to limit their understanding of the Quran with Muhammad, while many people are trying to limit the understanding of the Quran with Rashad, why?
"One of Satan’s favorite attempts at three Salats is by misrepresenting God’s system of giving us information from the Quran. Yes, we all agree that the Quran is fully detailed. But because only three Salats are mentioned by name, it does not exclusively mean two others don’t exist (2:238). God tells us that the Quran is the ‘source,’ which means that it is the point where you start and God will make you get you all the answers you need from there, even if you sometimes don’t see it spelled out word for word in there (5:101)."
There are a number of issues with this paragraph. The first is blatantly obvious, why would Satan want us to practice Salat three times a day? Why would Satan want us to practice Salat at all? When we consider the three minimum things to get to paradise, i.e. acknowledge God, acknowledge the Day of Judgement and lead a righteous life/work righteousness, why would Satan bother to try us to get to do 3 Salat? - I DONT UNDERSTAND WHAT HE MEANS HERE BY THREE MINIMUM THINGS O GET TO PARADISE..BECAUSE AS I UNDERSTAND AND AS I ACCEPT IT - AS PER SURAH BAYYINAH = 1 - WORSHIP IN GOD ALONE - 2 - PRAY TO GOD( SALAT - 3 - GIVE CHARITY - THESE ARE THE THREE MINIMUM - IF THERE IS SUCH A THING AS MINIMUM -
I agree with KKKK that Quran is fully detailed. It is interesting, is it not, that there are only three Salat mentioned by name. Seems pretty fool proof really. Either you have invented 2 or I have dropped 2. That is what it comes down to. This is a fascinating understanding. If you examine all the verses about Salat, we find that we have one either end of the day, and one at the middle. Now the question is, if I know I have to do one either end of the day, when should I do it? Before sunrise/after sunrise, and before sunset/after sunset. 11:114 clarifies this perfectly. The verse is telling us to do them 'near the night'. So two ends at the day, and near the night. This is a clarification of when the salat are to be done, so you don't do them after sunrise and before sunset - near the day. MY THOUGHTS ON SALAT IS ALREADY DETAILED.. 3 MENTIONED BY NAME SALAT FAJR, ISHAA AND WHAT IS WUSTA.. BUT FO RME I FIND 3 TIMES GIVEN TO SAY THESE PRAYERS - TWO ENDS OF DAY CLOSE TO NIGHT - 1 AND 2 AND 3 WHEN SUN DECLINES FROM HIGHEST POINT TOWARDS NIGHT..
The other thing we need to clarify is this, did Rashad knowingly mislead people? The obvious answer here is no. Rashad was too busy cleaning the rest of the problems with regard to Islam that he simply didn't have the time to get round to understanding this issue properly. And there are other examples I can give. For instance, in verse 4:34 Rashad translated the word DaRaBa as Beat, then in a footnotes and subtitle explained that men should not beat their wives. Instinctively he knew that it couldn't have been a command from God. However he had a lot to work on and more important issues loomed. If we look at the verb DaRaBa though out the Quran it has a number of meanings. One is to beat, sure, but others are to travel, the set forth, to let out etc. Rashad didn't have the time to understand this correctly, But God gave us our brains for a reason. The verse commands us to set forth/seperate from our wives after we have exhausted verbal and non verbal communication. To 'set them forth'. Are we going to ignore this Quranic explanation for this verse just to show some allegiance to a dead messenger? Rashad told us, as a messenger of God, to follow the Quran, to preach with the Quran Alone. Could it not be possible that he just got this wrong? Could it be possible that he assumed 5 Salat because the Quran says establish Salat and it could be understood that way? Personally I don't see this as an issue, because even if you strongly believe Salat is 5 times a day and can justify it from Quran that is fine, Salat is only PART of worshipping/serving God. AGAIN I DONT KNOW IF RK MISLEAD PEOPLE OR PEOPLE ARE BEING MISLEAD BY WISHFUL THINKING.. EITHER WAY I DONT CARE. ALL I KNOW IS I WANT TO WORSHIP gOD AS BEST AS I CAN AS PER GUIDANCE FROM GOD FROM THE QURAN.. YES THERE ARE ISSUES WITH RK'S TRANSLATION ANYONE WHO IGNORES THIS IS JUST LYING TO THEMSELVES.. BUT AS I AM NOT AN AUTHORITATIVE FIGURE ON ARABIC WHO AM I TO CONDEMN SOMEONE OVER THEIR CHOICE OF ARABIC - WE COMPARE DIFERENT TRANSLATIONS AND GET THE BEST USAGE OF WORDS AS PER GODS GUIDANCE TO US.. TO RELY ON ONE AND SAY THIS IS COMPLETE AND CORRECT IN THIS CASE RK TRANSLATION IS FOR ME WRONG..
5:101 is simply stating that once the Quran is revealed to us some issues will become clear, and not to preempt it. Since we have the Quran now, we can use the Quran for clarification. We do not need a human being to clear up God's word. Only God guides.
"As I have always seen it happen; people forget, or never understood, or turn unappreciative of God’s phenomenally efficient system of teaching from the Quran. This system is clearly explained in Appendix 9 by God’s messenger of the Covenant [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix9.html]. Whatever the messenger has explained in the Appendix is from the Quran, so please examine it carefully in the right context. I take this opportunity to remind you that it is the duty of every believer to trust, obey, uphold, and not place their opinion above God’s messenger, no matter how good another explanation may appear (4:64, 8:46, 49:1, 57:25). After you have studied Appendix 9, please do read the article at this link [http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/practices/salat/salat_quran_source.html]. We had it written to specifically help people get a further grasp on the subject of knowing how to get the religious duties from the Quran."
I think KKKK and many others have misunderstood what the appendices constitute. Rashad was a messenger of God, ONLY prophets get a new scripture. Therefore the appendices are not a new scripture, nor are they IN ANY WAY divine. Rather they are a reflection of his understanding at the time and trying to refer to the Quran to draw lessons therein. This is no different to the volumes of books written about Quran since it's revelation in 7th century Arabia. KKKK, and anybody else, we DO NOT NEED Rashad's appendices. If we derive some understanding from them, that is great, but Quran consists of 114 Suras, mathematically coded and preserved by God. If you read Appendix 19 you will notice that Rashad says that we do not need ANYTHING else with Quran. This is inclusive of his own teachings. I HAVE NOT BOTHERED TO READ THE APPENDICES - THEY ARE NOT GODS WORDS AND DO NOT FORM PART OF GODS MESSAGE.. THEY BELONG TO RK IN HIS UNDERSTAND OF THE QURAN - THAT IS NOT TO SAY THAT I WILL AGREE WITH HIS LOGIC ESPECIALLY WHEN I FIND NO BASIS FOR SOME THINGS THERE.. HIS THOUGHTS ARE HIS GOOD FOR HIM.. THEY ARE NOT MINE
Yes, we have to obey the messenger but ONLY in his righteous/right commands. AGREED WITH THIS STATEMENT WHOLEHEARTEDLY If you refer to Rashad's book, Quran, Hadith and Islam, you can see for yourself that the messenger should be obeyed only when he is right. When KKKK uses the phrase 'opinion over God's messenger' he is incorrect. Because the verse is as follows; [49:1] O you who believe, do not place your opinion above that of GOD and His messenger. You shall reverence GOD. GOD is Hearer, Omniscient.' Please notice the distortion which took place here. KKKK says God's messenger, the QURAN says GOD AND His messenger. TOMATO - TOMATO I LAUGHED HERE..If you refer to the Quran you will notice that this invariably means the Message. In other words, it is another way of saying the Quran, because the Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth and by his pen it means that do not put your opinion above the Quran. The other verses that KKKK refers to are misunderstood, God commands us to obey the messenger's righteous commands and judge us according to the Quran and facts/known things, please see 60:12.
The link to a web page to help people 'grasp' religious duties is indulging in opinions other than Quran. Quran is DETAILED and COMPLETE. We do not need any more. All the information for contact prayers are listed in Quran; Standing, Bowing, Prostrating. Our Salat should be dedicated to God alone. What more do you need? The children of Israel also asked question after question of their messengers to prevent them actually doing it. They wanted to be spoon fed. We have been blessed by God Almighty, the Creator of Everything, with a brain to think. Is it too much to open the Quran, chose words which are dedicated to God alone and then use them in our Salat? AGREED WITHOUT A DOUBT OF THIS REASONING.. BUT I UNDERSTAND SOME ISSUES PEOPLE HAVE.. WE HUMANS ARE TOO LAZY TO WORSHIP GOD OURSELVES, WE WANT TO BE TOLD WHAT TO DO; WHEN TO DO; HOW TO DO,.. WHAT TO SAY ;WHEN TO SAY ;AND HOW TO SAY - FOR SOME IT IS HARD TO JUST STAND BEFORE GOD AND PRAISE HIM - TALK TO HIM ACCORD HIM - SO BE IT - SOME PEOPLE HAVE THE BELIEF THAT THERE ARE SPECIAL STEPS AND THEY SHOULD DO AS PER THOSE STEPS - THE QURAN TELLS US WHAT TO DO - STAND, BOW AND PROSTRATE - IT DOES NOT TELL US HOW OFTEN TO DO IT - THIS IS SOMETHING WHICH BOTHERS PEOPLE BECAUSE IN A WAY I THINK( MY THOUGHTS) PEOPLE FEEL DISADVANTAGED IF SOMEONE DOES MORE THEM THEM SO THEY WANT TO BE ON AN EVEN KEEL..
"After you finish studying this information, you may wish to think about how come you are doing the steps of your practices anyway? Are you certain that you can point out every step written in Quran? For example, where is it written exactly what you should say or do in the Salat? Can you show it to me in the Quran? How do know you must do 7 rounds counter clockwise when you visit the Kab’ah? Can you show it in the Quran? Or can you clearly show the 2.5% Zakat system written in the Quran? You see, one way or another, you have to work with an assumption and already existing system. Then you use the Quran to confirm what’s right to do/continue or discard as a corruption. Ashraf and Edip are applying the same concept but surreptitiously diverting you from realizing this."
Earlier KKKK stated that the Quran is Fully Detailed, but here he seems to doubt that. In response to the Question; Are you certain that you can point out every step written in Quran?, my answer is YES. AND I AGREE WITH THIS AS PER ABOVEI covered the Salat above. Stand, Bow and Prostrate for your Lord, that is all we need to know. Sura 1, because of it's dedication and imploring of God is a good Sura to recite, but why just in Arabic? If you don't know what it means then it's like you are reciting it drunk (4:43). God is able to understand you. AGREED AGAINAs for lips touching 19 times, this is part of the mathematical code and appreciation of God's signs, not your contact prayer. AGREED AGAIN WITH REASONING There is no mention of 2.5% Zakat in Quran. The Quran recommends giving 'the excess' 2:219, 17:26. If you have two people, both earning 1000 pounds per month and 2.5% is due, both will pay 25 pounds. However, what if one has no children, no outgoings, no debts etc and the other has the opposite, this will disadvantage the latter, are they any less of a believer? They should both give the excess. AGREED WHOLEHEARTEDLY WITH THIS REASONINGThe Quran doesn't mention 7 times round Kaaba, could this be an innovation? Ultimately, IF your Source is Quran, you follow Quran. Maybe it's a case that Rashad assumed that these were ok, based on a misunderstanding of 'Millat Ibrahim', but we have no justification now that we should know and think (10:100). WILL AGREE WITH THIS REASONING BUT I DONT KNOW ABOUT THE COMMENT AT THE END RE:rk
"You see, its easy to first gain knowledge from other people’s works and then suggest changes. But would they originally be able to show you the system in Quran with no previous idea about it? Theirs is a simple trick I learned a long time ago when dealing with such people, namely: “Don’t get fooled by what they tell you—look for what they are not telling you."
Rashad brought us code 19 and started the purification process. Through Rashad, God started a process that nobody can stop, that is a continual learning process in order to understand the Quran. After all God tells us that there are straightforward verses, for example; God is ONE god, Day of Judgement is coming, Heaven and Hell are destinations etc, and there are multiple meaning verses; you shall DaRaBa - separate/set forth your wife etc. It is our duty to research Quran and understand with our minds, not blindly follow somebody just because he WAS a messenger of God. I agree with many things Rashad pointed to, and his understanding of MONOTHEISM and pointing to verses showing God's greatness really helps us appreciate in our limited capacity who God is and why we should Peacefully surrender ourselves to Him. But he is a human being who makes mistakes, he assumed wrongly, based on the wrong statistics at the time that only 75 billion humans are coming to earth. He misunderstood that only ardent disbelievers have a Jinn as a constant companion, instead of everybody. Does think detract from his message of Monotheism, or his and our understanding of God's Greatness. NO, not at all. It only shows the limitations of a human being in their life time, trying to purify their own mind from the nonsense of hadith and sunna. THE ISSUE WITH CODE 19 FOR ME IS THAT IT IS NOT A UNIQUE CODE - MAYBE IT IS BUT THE WAY IT HAS BEEN APPLIED IS NOT CONSISTENT THEREBY IN MY REASONING NOT MAKING IT UNIQUE. ITS AS IF IN EVERYTHING SOME PEOPLE SEEK TO EXTRICATE 19 FROM EVERYTHING SO THEY CAN MAKE IT COUNT.. I.E TRY ANY KIND OF FORMULA AS LONG AS YOU MAKE SURE YOU GET A DIVISIBLE NO OF 19..BUT I BELIEVE THE MESSAGE OF GOD IS BEYOND THAT.. CODE 19 IS TO CONFIRM THE QURAN AS AN INFALLIBLE SCRIPTURE NOT TO TAKE VERSES AND EVENTS TO ADD PROMINENCE TO THEM OR PEOPLE - THIS IS THE PART THAT WE HAVE GONE WRONG WITH.. 19 JUST CONFIRMS THE QURAN IS SO - IT DOES NOT CONFIRM ANYTHING ELSE OR CONFIRM ANY MESSENGER BECAUSE THE FORMULA IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH EACH THEORY THEY WANT TO CONFIRM..
"Please also don’t get misled when they tell you that by “follow Quran alone,” Dr. Khalifa meant that you should disregard the information he was authorized to give you with basis from the Quran. If that was the case, ask Ashraf and Edip to take down their websites and leave you alone with your Quran to figure things out. But Edip not talking about himself and not ending his constant challenge of God’s messenger (63:4)? Wow, that will be the day, but not so soon I think because 34:5, 17:16have to apply."
Ashraf and Edip could take their websites down and we would be ok with JUST OUR QURAN. Why would I replace mullahs, sheiks and sunni/shia 'imams' with your 'imams' in Masjid Tucson, KKKK? It is interesting that you say Edip talking about himself. Edip is one of the most hardworking individuals I know, striving in God's cause, trying to understand with his mind. He regularly debates atheists, christians, sunnis and shias and also promotes code 19, even discovering things which were not known by Rashad. He has done more for the reformist movement than the majority of people in Masjid Tucson put together, who, since my last trip there, seem to be happy to leave this to be a 'religion' you are born into, like previous religions. Edip has continued where Rashad left off. Rashad was indeed a pioneer in Quran Alone movement, and that is where the purification process began. I may not agree with everything Ashraf and Edip say, but they make very interesting discoveries/observations about the Quran, which can help us appreciation God's signs. I see it very much like cleaning a fantastic looking car (Islam in this example) covered in mud (innovations/lies/nonsense). Rashad had to scrape the big chunks off, really working hard to get the car actually looking like a car. After he died, Edip, Ashraf and whole host of other sincere believer took it upon themselves to clean the car with other the aid of only a picture of what the car is supposed to look like (the Quran). Why shouldn't this be a purification process? DONT KNOW WHO ASHRAF IS BUT HAVE READ SOME EDIPS WORK - GOOD LUCK TO BOTH OF THEM - WHATEVER WHOEVER - MY JOB IS TO SEEK KNOWLEDGE TO UNDERSTAND HOW TO WORSHIP GOD BETTER AND IF READING INFO THEIR POSTULATIONS HELPS ME THEN GOD BE PRAISED AND IF IT DOES NOT THEN GOD BE PRAISED FOR LETTING ME KNOW BETTER AND FINDING BETTER.
> You wrote “I sincerely wish to follow the Quran alone and of course worship God alone and I hope God willing that in doing that I will be following the message of Rashad.”
That’s great XXXX, so let’s reflect upon a couple of aspects here.
The religious practices (rites) are a great gift from God, extremely critical to soul growth. God has decreed the format or else they wouldn’t be defined as rites. Therefore, you either do the rites the way God designed them or you don’t (22:32). If everyone is left free to do as they believe, there will be no unity, no discipline, and no regard for a religious system decreed by God. And then it’s no different from how the world is at present—disunited in religion anyway. God sent His messenger to unite and set the system right, so think carefully if you are helping the process or disrupting it. Probably you have forgotten the lessons of Appendix 33 [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/appendix33.html] and the Introduction [http://www.masjidtucson.org/quran/appendices/introduction.html]. This may be a good time to catch up on them.
The 'religious system' that you refer to, or simply a system (Din) is actually incredibly simple. It is total and wilful submission/surrender to God.YES YES YES - IT IS SIMPLE - WE JUST LIKE TO COMPLICATE THINGS FOR OURSELVES.. Everything in this universe is doing it now and at every moment from the big bang to this moment now. We have been given in our minds the ability to choose this system for ourselves or not. God will redeem those who choose to Submit Only to Him to an eternal Paradise (Jannat). We do not need formalities in worshipping God. YES YES YES NO FORMALITIES - THIS IS WHAT WE DO - WE HUMANS TO MAKE THINGS COMPLICATED - WE NEED RITUALS AND STEPS AND FORMALITIES WE JUST COMPLICATE THINGS.. BUT THEN AGAIN I GUESS INDIVIDUALLY IT DOES NOT MATTER - THE ISSUE ARISES WHEN IN CONGREGATION ONE NEEDS FORMALITIES FOR CONGREGATION N'EST PAS?You do not need to be told to do something like this and that with some arbitrary statistically insignificant calculation to back it up. (This actually detracts from the statistically significant verifiable mathematical code in the Quran based on number 19). By trying to imply that those who disagree with you but follow the Quran Alone, while acknowledging God and the existence of a messenger after Muhammad, are somehow going to hell, it is you KKKK and others like you who are trying to disunite the system (Din), NO ONE KNOWS WHERE THEY WILL END UP - AND GOD IS OWNER OF TEH SOUL WHICH IS TEH IMPORTANT THING - OUTWARD ACTIONS BEARS NO SEMBLANCE TO INWARD INTENTIONS - NO ONE CAN SAY HE OR SHE WILL END UP HERE OR THERE ANYONE WHO IN MY VIEW SAYS OR POSTULATES IS JUST PLAIN BARMY..disrupting it and trying to turn a universal message into the following of a single human being who was fallible. I notice how you want me to put down my Quran and follow the appendices of a dead messenger.
"Do remember that in God’s system, there are no grey areas. You either do 5 Salats or you dont. You either say “Allahu Akbar” and give right-left salaams, or you don’t, and so on. One configuration will make you succeed and the other will not. An in-between or “both are okay” option is for the doubtful and compromisers. The messenger was sent to show and confirm what is right. If it was okay to do either or whatever else you wish, the messenger would have confirmed this and maybe shared a basis from the Quran a long time ago. But he did not. Surely God will not send a messenger to miss this huge element for soul growth, right?
Also remember that all messengers apply a “walk the talk” teaching technique. This means that they practice the system themselves and take responsibility for asking everyone to do like them. So if 5 Salats and other components of the rites practiced by the messenger are wrong, it can only mean that the messenger and those who are doing as he did are getting zero soul growth and will end up in Hell. Are you prepared to confirm this?"
God introduces Himself as the Gracious, the Merciful. According to you, if I don't say salams (peace) to angels in my contact prayer dedicated to God, I'm a compromiser. Ok, so be it. According to you, if I don't start my contact prayer with Allahu Akbar - God is the greatest - then I am going to hell? I have an entire Quran gifted to me from my Lord, I can use those names and others to refer to God. I can call Him with all the best names. YES YES YES YES AGREED WITH THIS REASONINGBut for you, it is so rigid, I can not use my mind to choose. Choice, according to you, is not in God's system, despite God giving us the choice to call upon HIM with ANY BEAUTIFUL NAME. Unfortunately, you have replaced, or seemed to have replaced, the Quran, which is God's messenger until the Day of Ressurection, with Rashad Khalifa, a human being, a fallible man, who's only real message was 'uphold the Quran, the whole Quran and nothing but the Quran'. See Appendix 18, entitled Quran: All you NEED for Salvation. (emphasis is mine). WHOLEFULLY SUPPORT THIS REASONING Interestingly Rashad doesn't mention his appendices here, nor his video tapes, nor his audio tapes, nor his submitters perspectives, nor any book he wrote. All of these are the new HADITH. I HAVE TO SUPPORT THIS REASONING
Please note everybody that KKKK's next statement in the next paragraph. According to him, Rashad will 'take responsibility' for asking everybody to do these practices. This is a demonstrably false claim. I HAVE TO SAY SO TOO..
[39:7] If you disbelieve, GOD does not need anyone. But He dislikes to see His servants make the wrong decision. If you decide to be appreciative, He is pleased for you. No soul bears the sins of any other soul. Ultimately, to your Lord is your return, then He will inform you of everything you had done. He is fully aware of the innermost thoughts.
Rashad will not be held responsible for your decisions on the day of Judgement. Rashad may have made mistakes but his message is crystal clear - follow only the Quran, do not follow Rashad Khalifa. He said this over and over and repeated in his videos that Rashad Khalifa is not needed, but Quran is. The messenger did his Salat according to the understanding he had at the time. God will forgive him for his errors. God never burdens a soul/person beyond their means. Those who genuinely, referring only to Quran, believe that 5 salat prayers per day are prescribed and follow that are not to be blamed. But those who do it just because Rashad did it without their reason, why should God accept it from them, they had to have a human between them and God. AGREED.
"When you have the time XXXX, look up some of the information the messenger shared in his publications and videos. Try to appreciate the tremendous wisdom and wealth of never expected guidance in that information. God willing you will realize that he assures that you will not be doing wrong if you do the practices the way he confirmed/did them. He also makes it clear that if you do it any other way you will be the loser (4:115). Are Edip and Ashraf giving you the same assurance that their system is the right way to Heaven while the messenger and those who follow him will go to Hell (45:23)?"
I love that you direct XXXX to a source besides the Quran, even though you claim to be a monotheist. It's brilliant. Rashad Khalifa is no longer here to defend this claim you make and undoubtedly any claim is completely removed from the context. This is precisely why we should go back to Rashad's message of God Alone/Quran Alone. That way, God, not Rashad, but GOD, guarantees that we will not go wrong. YES YES YES SUPPORT THIS STANCE
"> You worte: “I don't intend to generalise any groups as idol worshippers or Satan's agents but of course I do intend to be cautious and ask God for guidance during this time….”
God bless you for your fairness and sincerity. But while I appreciate your position, experience has shown me the need to be pragmatic about this. You see, the fact is that a person is either a believer or a disbeliever. A person is either with God and His messenger or not. If you challenge God’s messenger and go against what he was sent to establish, then you are an agent of Satan. There is simply no compromise on this. Its just like with the traditional Muslims who are in a state of disbelief. If you do not acknowledge this fact then you cannot be an ally of God. However, this does not mean that you condemn these people personally or don’t have amicable relations with them. What they do is between them and God but there is a cut-off point for what you will accept or do along with them. God allows you to take this call (3:119, 4:109, 9:17)."
The problem here is trying to separate God from His messenger, in so much as that the messenger brings a message from God. Rashad, like all other messengers is a human being, subject to errors and mistakes, Muhammad prohibited something for his wives that God did not prohibit. The mistake was Muhammad's and not God's. The same applies to Rashad, you assume he was without error and everything he did was perfect. From this error you attribute his mistakes to God. Rashad was involved in prophesying a terrible meteorite strike on Saudi Arabia in 1990. REALLY I DID NOT KNOW ABOUT THIS - THIS IS NEWS TO ME - AND I LAUGH - SOOTHSAYER not!! How much of this was Rashad, and how much others pushing him, it doesn't matter, what matters is that he made a mistake, we should not attribute mistakes to God. God does not err. GOD IS TRUTH HE DOES NOT ERR - CORRECT. Rashad, in making mistakes can cause errors in a community. But God sent us Quran as a way of correcting our errors. I will not compromise on Quran Alone. You want me to have Quran + Appendices + Video tapes + Audio Tapes + Submitters Perspectives. This is simply not necessary nor is it God's system. I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT HERE
'Submitters do experience misunderstandings on their journey of learning the lessons of the Quran. God guides the true seekers to the right understanding eventually. But with Ashraf and Edip the situation is different. What they are doing is trying to disrupt God’s religious practices which directly affects the path to salvation. God commands us to defend the truth and help people realize what Satan is trying to. If I don’t help you recognize Satan’s agents, I will not be supporting God and His messenger (47:7, 48:10). It will be the same kind compromise if you try to suppress the fact that traditional Muslims are practicing/advocating the word of Satan!'
KKKK here seems to liken following Rashad's message of God Alone/Quran Alone to following Satan's message. This is a gross lie. Satan has done something clever though. In his attempt to make a new idol, Satan has changed the reference of the Quran to include not just the ARABIC QURAN, but also a translation limited in time, appendices and also the videos and audio files. Rashad never saw his translation as anything but a translation, authorised BECAUSE it was the FIRST to be DEDICATED to GOD alone/QURAN alone. AM GLAD SOMEONE CLARIFIED THIS BECAUSE AS I HAVE STATED BEFORE I DON'T CONSIDER THIS TRANSLATION AUTHORIZED AS IN RUBBER STAMPED AS THE BEST AND THE ONLY ONE -
"At this time XXXX, I can understand if you don’t gauge the depth of what Im saying. To get the right understanding, you have to first know why all this is happening.
You see, it is God’s system to allow Satan to present his point of view. People have to make exits or else you will not have the core group that God wants (22:52, 47:32). So how do submitters get misled? They get exposed to Satan’s message through people who appear to be knowledgeable with their eloquence (63:4). Their challenge has to appear formidable or else you will not consider it. The corruption has to come from within where you least expect it because you have already crossed the barrier of corruption that comes from the traditional Muslims.
Think about it. Who will play the role of delivering deceit at this level? If not the traditional disbelievers or Edip/Ashraf and others like them, then who? Surely Satan cannot be waiting 25-30 years for the ideal opportunity to make his move. He started back then, even during the messenger’s time but you just don’t know it. Once again, please don’t get misled easily. Their claim to worship God alone and follow Quran alone means nothing just like those who claim to be righteous are not. You just have be strong enough to come to terms with the reality (58:22, 11:113)."
The difficulty with these paragraphs is that KKKK can also fit the description that he states. It could have also been that 25-30 years ago Satan started working on members of the Tuscon group to turn some into idol worshipper again, this time with the new idol Rashad. The Sunnis/Shias couldn't proclaim Muhammad God's son, so they put his name next to God then claimed to be monotheists. The 'submitters' couldn't do that with Rashad, so where go now? How about replace the unreliable hadith and sunna, with Rashad's reliable appendices/videos/audios. Still they are unreliable because they are removed from context and we don't know everything that happened before hand of afterwards, but this is a modern day 'authentic' hadith. As for their claims, if somebody states that they worship God Alone, and ACTUALLY worship God alone, then it is no longer a claim, it is a truth. Similarly, if somebody claims to follow Quran Alone and then follows ONLY Quran (Arabic Quran - 114 chapters, 6346 verses) then it is no longer a claim, it is a truth. Who is telling the truth here? TRUTH IS SUBJECTIVE DEPENDING ON THE INFORMATION WE CHOOSE TO ACCEPT - BUT GOD ALONE IS TRUTH AND IN HIM ONLY WE RELY AND TRUST.
"> You wrote: “I currently find myself agreeing with most of the information on his site and in the English translation of the Quran by Edip…”
For this, you may like to look at the third last para of this link (starts with “Itis a great blessing…)[http://www.masjidtucson.org/submission/faq/rashad_khalifa_summary.html] I feel you have missed realizing that Rashad Khalifa did not do a word for word literal translation. He often explained the broad context of the verse (in a simple manner) keeping in mind a varied future global audience. And how did you determine that Edip’s translation is right? And can you really compare the wisdom and information that is provided in Rashad Khalifa’s Authorized English Version of Quran? Anytime you wish to share something from Edip’s translation which has brought more value or changed your life, please do. However, know that you will also need to provide verifiable proof and basis accordingly. You will also need to simultaneously show if or how the messenger’s rendering of the same verses have retarded or misled you in your spiritual path. I could give you more insights on this topic but lets keep it for another time."
How do you KNOW Rashad's translation is right? You don't know it, you believe it. You use your reason and deduce it. If I am going to reason I may as well reason with the Quran, the direct, unaltered word of God. AGREE WITH THIS I don't know Edip has it right, but I can do comparative study. I can use any translation and corpus, including Rashad's, Edip's, Ashraf's and a number of others, even Sunnis etc. Then I can use my reason with God Alone/Quran Alone in my heart. AGREE WITH THIS As I stated earlier, Rashad himself knew his translation wasn't right otherwise why bother working on a new one. WAS HE WORKING ON A NEW ONE - WELL THEN THAT SPEAKS FOR ITSELF IF THAT WAS THE CASE.He was in a continued state of learning. As should we be. Quran is unlike any other book, God teaches it and God uses it to guide or send people astray, regardless of translation.
"God willing I have been able to provide you enough information for you think about. Normally, I would have left it at the first section about the system from the Quran which is usually enough for most people. I have enjoyed our respectful email exchanges over the past couple of years. I just sense that you need some more information at the crossroad you are at. Besides, if you can read up so much content on two websites and change your practices so quickly, then surely you can read up this if you really want to find the truth .
Ive seen lots of people at your stage, and many people come and go out of submission, XXXX. Some who have gone have led miserable lives, but of course, what you do with your soul is up to you. It just does not make sense that anyone can be a loser by doing what God asks you to do through His messenger (57:25). And now, before I end, I would like to strongly recommend that you read two articles from the November 1989 Submitter’s Perspective published by God’s messenger two months before he was martyred. These are titled Hypocrites Proclaim: “We Do Not Need A Messenger” & “Divine Proclamation Through Gabriel: Like the time of Noah: Only those who stand with God's messenger will be saved. [Click this link to get themhttp://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/sp/1989/nov/page3.html]. You should also see his last conference speech where he asks a challenger if she does the Contact Prayer like him. The video is at:https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=8u_jHZxZHro Watch from the beginning but the specific section Im referring to is between 28:00 and 33:00. Dr. Khalifa could give these assurances because he had the divine authority to. Maybe you should check if Edip and Ashraf are giving you the same assurances as in the articles and video. Remember that the consequences are enormously detrimental for invoking false guarantees in God’s name (6:93)."
If we follow Quran Alone, God will guide us. Even if we follow Quran translated by Yusuf Ali, or any other translator. YES THAT IS CORRECT I AGREE WITH THIS STATEMENT - PROVIDED THE TRANSLATOR AS SOUGHT TO TRANSLATE AND NOT OMIT OR ADD INTO IT BUT NONETHELESS IF GOD IS GUIDING YOU THE TRUTH WILL BE VISIBLE REGARDLESS - YOUR SPIRIT WILL REACH OUT TO THE TRUTH FROM GOD.We can read Rashad's appendices and listen to his audio tapes and watch his videos so long as we understand that they do not constitute the system that God has given us. God's system is represented by the Quran Alone. God does not forget, God does not give us something which needs completing. God is the One who teaches. Rashad made mistakes including in submitters perspectives and videos are totally removed from the context of a messenger of God trying to convince others that were skeptical to that message and going around back biting. We don't know whether Rashad reconsidered his guarantees, we do not know whether he repented to God. Because there isn't a video of every day of his life that we have access to, including his thoughts, how do we know what he thought? Quran, not Rashad, but Quran convinces me that Rashad Khalifa was indeed a messenger of God. I don't need his video tapes and audio and submitters perspectives etc to get closer to God. I just need Quran. YES I SHARE THIS SENTIMENTAlthough i may benefit from the knowledge in some of them I may also benefit from learning about nature from nature books, and physics from books. This will, God willing, help me to appreciate Quran even more.
Rashad made mistakes and was a human who has died, now he is at his Lord. But the Quran is the message and the messenger until the day of Judgement. We need to follow the Quran, not the understanding of a fallible human being. When I see something in the Quran with my own eyes and can use the reason that God has blessed me with, why can't I celebrate it or change my understanding. Wouldn't I be lying to myself if I didn't? What would Rashad say? Didn't Rashad tell us to follow the Quran and not to follow Rashad Khalifa? And didn't he say that IF Rashad Khalifa is wrong about anything then we should not follow him and be the first to point it out?
As a final point, can I just say that we are meant to be tested. This is the test. DO YOU FOLLOW QURAN ALONE as God's messenger prescribed. OR DO YOU FOLLOW OTHER SOURCES BESIDES THE QURAN?
[17:45] When you read the Quran, we place between you and those who do not believe in the Hereafter an invisible barrier.
[17:46] We place shields around their minds, to prevent them from understanding it, and deafness in their ears. And when you preach your Lord, using the Quran ALONE, they run away in aversion.
[17:47] We are fully aware of what they hear, when they listen to you, and when they conspire secretly—the disbelievers say, "You are following a crazy man."
Peace,
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