The question started off in an email which reads:
Peace All,
I was just enjoying being able to read Submission.org tonight when I chanced onto the question: can a woman lead a congregation with men present?
Whilst I have no great need or desire for this to happen, I was intrigued by the intellectual argument from the people at Submission.org. They said that to expect women to be able to lead a congregation with men present would be an innovation, based on the argument that all the Islamic practices are passed down to us from previous generations. They go on to use the prayer as an example, that we are not given all the details in the Koran. However, the mathematical miracle supports the correct method of praying. There is nothing in the Koran to support the idea that women cannot lead a congregation with men present - or is there?
I am interested in what the rest of you think.
Hope you are all well.
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The reply which made me crack up was:
ARE WOMEN ALLOWED TO LEAD THE FRIDAY CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER, BECAUSE AS $$$$$ SAYS, "QURAN DOES NOT PROHIBIT IT."?
Quran does not prohibit us to eat some strange creature in the depths of the sea, but eating it is not going to happen
Quran does not prohibit us to go to the polar star, but going there is not going to happen.
Similarly, Quran does not prohibit letting a woman lead the friday congregational prayer, but it is not going to happen.
So, why does it not happen among the believers that a woman lead a friday congregational prayer?
It doesn't happen because the righteousness of the most righteous man brings twice as much benefits as the righteousness of the most righteous woman (4:11). What do I mean by this? I don't mean that a woman is half a man. Here is what I mean:
The 100 meter running world record for the fastest man is 9.58 seconds, while the same record for women is 10.49 seconds. As you can see the difference is not twice as much, but if the fastest man would compete against the fastest woman a hundred times, he would most likely win twice as many times.
Similarly, let's say that you give a 1,000 dollars to a man and 1,000 dollars to a woman. Let's say that you let them save it in two different banks. Let's say that because of the interest, the first bank returns 1040 dollars to the man, and the other bank 1030 dollars to the woman. As you can see the difference is only 10 dollars, but if they put the returned money which they gained back to their same separate banks, after 80 years, the man will have twice as much money as the woman. He will have 20,000 dollars while the woman will have 10,000 dollars.
There is a hadith which says that Mohammad saw Hell and he told them that most of the people in Hell were women (I happen to have heard this, but I don't base my life on it). In fact, Mohammad saw the surface of hell, (he didn't have x-ray vision to see inside of it) (19:71). So yes, the surface of hell is mostly women, but the depth of hell is mostly men. No woman can be as bad as Hitler, and no woman can be as good as Abraham. Sodom and Gomorrah were men sleeping with men. And if you let the most righteous men compete against the most righteous women, in the long run after about 40 years all the men will beat women in leadership. Leadership among submitters is naturally chosen by God based on righteousness (49:13).
If you pair every righteous woman with a righteous man randomly, in almost half of the cases the woman will be more righteous than a man, and in just a little bit more than half of the cases the man will be more righteous than the woman. However, if you pair the most righteous man in a group of submitters with the most righteous woman in a group of submitters, the most righteous man in each group will ALWAYS be more righteous than the most righteous counterpart woman in each group.
This is why it will not happen that a woman leads a Friday Congragational Prayer. The Quran says to disregard those who are less righteous (7:199). Disregarding means that you don't go after what a person says, but you let him come after what you say. As you can see, because the believers follow this law, gradually all of them will start going after the most righteous, and the less righteous will come after them.
If a very big group of submitters is led by a woman, than the group has most likely not been created naturally, but it has been created with schemes, and half-evil intentions.
Gender is not the only parameter which affects the extremeness of righteousness and extremeness of evil. Other things which affect it are nose size, body hair, body size, etc. In other words, even though a believer is a believer regardless of these things, there are more chances that a believer with more body hair, bigger nose, and bigger body size will be slightly more righteous than the other believer without those features. The opposite is also true, a disbeliever with a bigger nose, more body hair, and bigger body size is worse than a disbeliever without those features. This is why the Jews and Arabs are nations of prophets and nations of extreme evils (5:82, 9:98).
As you can see, God is not a racist, but before we came to this world He offered us to take tests with different levels of risk. Each of us chose a test (our life fate), and those souls who chose higher levels of risk were put into bodies with bigger noses, more body hair, and bigger body sizes (32:9, 40:21). This does not mean that they will pass the test successfully, but it means that if they pass it they will on average score higher than others, and if they don't they will score worse than others. "They put more money in their bet."
This is why XXXX can not be a leader. If she goes to hell, chances are that it will be mild hell, and if she goes to heaven, chances are that it will be mild heaven. And if she doesn't agree to go to the mild heaven because she thinks that she is so special to deserve the higher heaven, she will go to the mild hell. This implies that it is quite strange that she was the first to express her opinion about me and not the last.
To conclude, it simply does not happen that a woman lead a group of righteous people in their friday congregational prayer. If there is such a case, the group leaders are not righteous.
However, what may happen among submitters is this:
Let's say a woman found something very interesting regarding a Quranic issue. She calls one of the submitters on the telephone or sends him an e-mail to tell him about it. He looks at it, agrees with it, and thinks that this is very important to discuss in the next Friday sermon. He starts the sermon and immediately says, "She (whatever the name may be) has found some very important and interesting information and can you please share it with us since I don't remember every detail now." She can take almost all the sermon explaining it from the same spot where she was sitting for the prayer, and in the end the male leader simply says, "Let's repent." So, actually it is the female who gave most of the information, but the male made the decision whether the information was relevant and worth talking about. If she says something contrary to what is right, the male might interrupt her, and she has no right to disagree even if she thinks that she is right.. She may talk about the issue after the prayer.
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and my reply was
Salam alaykum, wot does aportioning a will have 2 do wit righteousness? 4-11 is quite clear verse in terms of its context as is the verse before it and after it. By your own logic using verse 4-12 a righteous woman is equivalent to half a righteous man then? Have you forgotten dat we are all equal in the sight of God? Let me refer you to verse 3-195. your analagy is very interesting you know bt i am grateful to God that there are clear verses that are straight forward and 4-11 is one of them as is 3-195. Lets not take the word of God out of context and use it to justify or explain our personal agendas. True Guidance belongs to the Most Gracious and this is a perfect example. So tell me why it cant happen that we eat a creature from the sea? as to dawns question, my view is thus- yes there is nothing in the quran dat prohibits women from leading prayer, but it doesnt mean it cant be done, depends if the community praying together have no objections- at
the end of the day, unity and peace must flourish and besides does it matter who leads the prayer? As long as the prayer is dedicated to God and one is in a fit state to lead the prayer?. I am failing to see your grasp of 19.71. Every single one must see hell. So have you seen hell that you are able to say who is in it, male or female- it does not matter. Hell is a certainty wen we are summoned, it will be presented and we all see it. When are we summoned! On the day of ressurection.. Now unless you have had your ressurection before us all and you can comfortably say that he she that and this are going to hell. ?? God is Judge and God is the one who decides the fate of every one of us. i am reading 49.13 and i am failing to reconcile what is translated and what you have written. 49.13 does not mention leadership so i am struggling to see from where your notion that leadership implies righteousness? Righteousness is for God to decide ultimately and by
interpose you can be a good leader and not be the most righteous person there or looking at it in another way, you can be a righteous person and not be a natural leader- look at moses for example. Was supported by God with by teaming wit Aaron. Also verse 7-199, you shall resort to pardon, advocate righteousness and DISREGARD THE IGNORANT. Are you infering that being less righteous is being ignorant.. please ellaborate, what is written is clear, what is translated is clear bt i am failing to see how and why you have put a spin on it to justify your stance. Verse 32.9 is talking about creation of man, so where is the body part and how having a big part implies a particular destiny for you. In case you have forgotten let me refer you to a verse 49.13 - o people, we created you from the same male and female and renderd you distinct people and tribes that you may recognise one another. The best among you in the sight of God is the most righteous. God is
Omniscient, Cognisant. by the way who is suggesting that XXX is a leader, would that not be up to the wider group to decide this? ******, i feel you are wrong to insinuate what you wrote. You strikd me that you have a personal aversion to XXXX and i will respectfuly say to you that you should keep yourself in check because it is bringing about an unpleasant side of you. It is not for you to say, think, or make suggestions where anyone will end up on judgement day. You are not Their creator. Worry about your own neck and leave each person to worry about theirs. i am really fascinated at your 'theory of what affects the extremeness of righteousness' of people. So apart from gender, (bearing in mind that we are all equal in d sight of God, male or female) and bodyparts( i dont know where this notion is from bt i am intrigued) what else? Sent wit the utmost respect and affection fats. Ps- pls read verses aftr seeking refuge frm God and in the name of God
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then the originator of the email wrote
Thanks for your reply. The only reply!! Where are the submitters?
You point out that the best among us is the most righteous (49;13). However, how do we know that the best is referring to the male of the species. There are many verses in the Koran that remind us that the male and the female are equal (3:195).
You say 7:199 tells us to disregard the ignorant. How do we know that the ignorant here is a reference to women and even if it is, if men and women are equal then women cannot be simply cast aside and disregarded as ignorant! This feels like the situation of the women in Saudi Arabia who are completely disregarded by the men. Surely you don't mean this. I can understand why the men receive more of a share of wills etc., because they are the ones who will assume the role of provider. This does not make them intellectually superior to women, it just means that God has assigned them the steerers of the ship. As you point out the Koran speaks of a woman who ruled a country. This woman was surely superior in some way to the men over whom she ruled. And surely she was the most powerful of all the people in the land - there could be no man who was more powerful than her.
You say there are many things the Koran doesn't speak of and yet they will never happen. When I sent this email I was thinking of men having their foreskin removed. This used to be thought of as part of Islam. The Koran has no opinion on this, as far as I have read, therefore those people who call themselves muslim and continue to regard this as good practice are breaking no law.
In terms of my point of behaviours being supported by the numerical miracle, I am thinking of things that have struck me such as Surah 2:222 where menstruation is spoken of. To me, it is the numbers here more than the words which give us information. I like to think that the numbers here represent the amount of days it takes for a woman to be clean from the start to the finish of her menstruation - add all the 2s together to get 8.
I would like to think there was concrete evidence to look at to say simply and firmly that a woman cannot lead the congregation.
Looking forward to your reply.
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AT THIS TIME I AM REALLY CRACKING UP... with laughter rolling my body on the floor
then the reply came
I think that most of your questions which you ask are asked prematurely. There are people who need help with honest questions, and let's solve the real issues. UK is a female oriented society, and your questions will put the submitters in an uneasy position. I haven't decided yet whether it is smarter to ignore your future questions or to answer them. Your questions are like asking Moses whether Pharaoh is bad, and Pharaoh is there.
The case of Sheba is a clear indication that a woman leader can not survive as righteous (27:43). It is an example how disbelievers like to choose a woman as their leader because they can control them easier. She submitted with Solmon, and not alone (27:44). Only when she lost her leadership because she was defeated by Solomon did she manage to become a Submitter (27:44).
The same case is with Mary. Actually, one of the special missions of Zacharia was to be Mary's guardian. This is because she had a mission to spend her time in the sanctuary since God had told her to go to the temple. There is no example in the Quran of a leading woman as a submitter. But there are examples of leading women disbelievers, such as Sheba.
Regarding whether men and women are equal. Men are men and women are women (3:36). Are an apple and a pear equal? Men and women are equal to one another (4:25). This means that a woman is as valuable to a man as a man is valuable to a woman.
And if these things are making you feel uneasy @@@ and Fatima, it is partly because you are women. Jesus had 12 men disciples. The prophets and the messengers are men. Martyrs are mostly men. Soldiers who strive (fight) are mostly men (4:95). Men are the providers, and this means that God generally makes them richer because it wouldn't be smart for a poor person to provide for a richer person since it would be the opposite of charity. And because men are generally richer (in a true submitting society), then submitting men are generally better (16:75). This is not a guarantee that a specific man will necessarily be better than a specific woman. I'm afraid, that if you don't feel happy with this arrangement (4:34) you might leave some empty space in Heaven for the Arab women (66:11), and you have left a lot of empty space for %%%%%.
Please, just submit. Why is it so hard? I understand that a lot of you have made an ego for yourself, because your fathers have taught you something which is not right, and you have achieved to understand the truth despite what they told you. Now you want to prove them wrong. They were men, but that's not why they were wrong; that is why they were deeply wrong. Are you afraid that you will be treated unfairly again? (24:50). That's not what Fatima, the daughter of Mohammad, would say, and that's not what Mary said to Zacharia. They were happy with the proper arrangement.
If the Quran says that women should obey their righteous husbands, than I will say the same thing without fair of being blamed. If you think this sounds bad in UK, than don't ask me about those issues. I'm pretty sure that Mohammad sounded more outdated about women but he treated his wife (anyone of them) better than Rashad. Rashad was saying those things in such a political manner because he knew that there are submitting women being oppressed by "muslim" men all over the world, and what he said is not in contradiction with Quran. The Quran says the glass is half full, and Rashad said that the glass is half empty. He spoke the truth. Your questions are indeed disfavoring and hurting to any women with a traditional muslim husband, because this will give their husbands a justification to oppress them. There are still more submitting women with "muslim' husbands, than there are submitting women with submitting men. Please don't heart them. I'm sounding different from Rashad in these e-mails to distinguish those women who became submitters because it suited them from those who became submitters because they love to worship God alone. Don't be surprised, if you hear me sound like Rashad in front of "muslims" and western media.
Just get over it. You should obey your husband, if he is a submitter. Really, what would he order you? Honey, come to bed! Honey, you can go to your job whenever you have to! Honey, let's go to the Friday prayer! Is this really something a woman does not like to obey?
I'm pretty sure that #### doesn't ask (((((( to wear his socks for him, or wash his feet.
Fatima, appointing a will has to do with righteousness, because God is just.
Leadership does have to do with righteousness in a community of submitters (38:47). It does not have to do with righteousness in other communities. In other communities, it has to do with fame and richness.
The word ignorant means "not knowledgeable". If you take two people with exactly the same characteristics and exactly in the same circumstances, except that one of them is more knowledgeable. The one who is more knowledgeable is more righteous. This does not mean that if you take two people at random that the more knowledgeable is more righteous.
Regarding Homa's leadership - It was Wael or someone else who called her a leader and she and others did not deny it.
Regarding body parts - Our appearance reflects our initial decision before we came to this earth. it does not determine our destiny. It shows how we chose to start the test, and not how we will end it. We will be reward by how we end. But our test is designed by how we started, and our body reflects how we started. We started when we chose the test.
Ok, so why are our eyes above our nose? Why is our nose above our mouth. Why do we have two eyes, and not two mouths? Nothing is random. Everything in this world is a reflection of what happened in Heaven. There is a reason for everything. You will understand these things some day (18:68).
Regarding the strange creature of the sea - Yes you can eat one of them, but there are more of them which people have never seen. It just happens that they will not eat them. Similarly, it just happens that a woman does not lead the prayer among submitters (unless they are all women and children in a group).
I don't know whether I answered all your questions.
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really i am cracking up as i am amused at great lenghts
then i replied and for me, when jibberish is talking you just ignore it... this is my last topic on the matter
salam alaykum,
ighteousness and will, if you failed to see the point i was making i will refresh it for you.
the context in which the verse is translated has nowt to do with your evaluation "---the righteousness of the most righteous man brings twice as much benefits as the righteousness of the most righteous woman (4:11)"
you have made reference to a verse in the Quran talking about apportioning will, and you then take it out of context and impose it on your own evaluation... i am lost on that..
as with the othe rverses which you have also taken out of context... but if that is your understanding of the Quran then fair enuff for you..
anyhow to each is own...
this is not a men vs women issue by all accounts, for me what it is , is truth and how you are infereing things in relation to the Quran which i feel are clear in intent and context and how you spin them to relate to something else...... in anycase God provides meaning and understanding of the Quran... whatever you think if it works for you.. good on you..
this theory about body parts, i am really finding it very amusing... and please dont mind me saying how your own features are lost on you or you hav not looked in the mirror lately?
when you point one finger te others are pointing back at you...
**** as usual your replies amuse me if not anything.. as i have said before you never cease to amaze me - i just love watching the way you operate, it is interesting to watch and see how it will eventually enfold.. you are slowly drawing in other people into this making your audience bigger, but i am waiting to see if they fall for the bait...
Salam akaykum....
I have omitted the names... ***** in my view is the one whose reply is cracking me up with laughter.
XXXX is a particular womam that i feel he has issues with
@@@@@ is the person who started thetopic in the first instance
#### and ))))) are another married couple that we all know of
%%%%% is another lady that we all know of.
honestly at least i can say if nothing i have a good laugh... hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah
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