Its funny how relationships deteriorate when emotion becomes the reasoning factor..
but really we should try to overcome those emotions and reason logically and come to a concluding resolve...
its like a playground qurrel.. my way or the highway, telling everyone else to choose who your friends are looking to gain the most support and opress the other person...
i did not reply to the email because at that point all i could do was to laugh.... when one is stubborn and doesnt want to accept a view... if you normally wait a while in my experience they normally end up accepting the view that was put at the table in the first instance....
laughter is good for the soul...
Adetutu: this is a lesson to remind you of the stupidity of all human behaviour - yours included... we all change based on whichever influence is being exeterd on us.. We look to God to ask him to hold us fast to the straight path - worhsipping Him alone
on a final note...
there is no victory.....but rather we should all quastion ourselfs and see how could we have handled this a bit better.
A bit more understanding, a bit more patience for things dont soften and anger cannot reside whenever you want it to but rather yu hope and pray that with time the good lord eases it out...
avoid suspicions and take things on an open footing. learn to dissociate emotion and reality, have an open mind, dont take sides but in all stay in the middle..its only when you have irrfutable proof can you saiy you are with this side or that side, Pray to god fo rhelp and guidance.. and on a last note - Use the bloody spell checker whenever u send an email...
++++++++++++++++++++
humble pie applies to all parties..no one is excluded from it...the wrongs were commited by both parties and some rights where committed by both parties.. Who is to say who is more wrong than the other...
We are still going on an issue of dispute when i think there needs not to be one..
If you focus on one thing only,, you give that one thing a notion to think they are indispensable... and frankly no one is indispensible... if we all worship God then really we must do the right thing( that said right is a notion that is subjective) - The Quran is there t Guide us, God being the Ultimate overseer, - that being said as well, some people are all producing Verses to support their arguements.( that too is subjective) with time one would think that sides would have softned, seing how things have deteriorated... but aparantly it doesnt want to... Egos are getting bigger, arrogance is overclouding judgements in my view...
Now we are getting somewhere... and yes i agree with you.. because we are not getting anywhere
lets find another venue for the meetings, its not paramount for the meetings to he held in XX residence, she has said she wishes for the group meetings not to be held there anylonger.. surely that is nt a big deal.. we hold the group meetings elsewhere..
that way we know where the problem exactly is and we flush the real problem if any out into the open...
We just find somewhere else, like a library, coffee house etc... no claims on ownership... that way we all will be on similar footings, - if anyone wishes to hold meetings at their house then fair enuff, but they do so knowing the risks involved..
if exclusion to some people at a particular residence is causing issues, then we find another residence where there is no exclusion... its as simple as that...
but if we wish we can keep stressing the issue...
I am sure XX has no problems being in the same room with XX and i am sure XX has no problems being in the same room with XX...
What is the quarrel about anyway .. Control, ownership, who has the bigest ego, who has the biggest bank of friends/supporters, ?
Which ever way you look at it both sides are WRONG and RIGHT in my view..
agree to disagree live with it and bloody heck move on...
i will urge you all one again to all reconsider your positions.. Remember God.. consider the flip side - " what if i have gotten it all wrong" Surely with peace we stand united....
salam fats
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
salam ,
see i have said my point the rest is up to you...
if i were in the least bit suspicious i wouls be partial
alaykum salam
fats
=======================
Salaam,
I've apologised twice to XXX
I've told XX let's meet in a neutral place, reconcile and move forward.
What has XX done?
Anyway, I've told you this before, go and be with XX (since you've endorsed her position), or do you think she has any plans to do things other than her way?
By the way, for someone who is so eager to point at suspicion, how bizarre that you can't see yourself slipping into it.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
you refuse to bugde and from what i see, you are pointing the finger at everone else.
Take blame eat humble pie and get on with life...
this view of yours - in my view ponpous attidude - is not getting you anywhere...
there were wrongs, on tboth parts
there were some rights on both parts but by an large the rights were not capitalised on but rather you both seem engrossed in highlighting and compounding on the wrongs..
regarding private emails, when one has been corrected by other members of the group i dont see anyneed to correct them again as the point has been made however rather than rebuke someone openly if i have any issue with them or their conduct,i rather do it directly to the person involved.. as the issue is with that person not everyone else..
blame.. for all i can see there is no blame attached to me other than allowing both of your nonsensical outburst to continue without calling you both to action.
you have refused to move on as much as XX ... in my view.. dont worry if u want to delude urself into thinking you have then fair enuff to you...
neutrality was offered but you didnt jump on the bopportunity.. by the way is there anything special about XX house..
why dont you open up your house and hold the meetings there...
its no big deal where the meeting is held, as far as i am aware initially you offered peace and XXrejected it saying she didnt want to meet with you
then she later took back her words sayng that she did not have any problems being in the same room as you. as long as it was not her house.. this is when neutralty and common sense should have prevailed and you should have jumped on the chance to end this stupid childrens tiff. but you didnt, instead you threw it back. wanting things to be done on you terms...
now tell me.. you have absolved urself of blame..
you still go on and on about the same thing.. You! your stance and your refusal to budge... if that is how u want to go then fair enuff to you.. i respect that choice....
i can only urge.nudge, remind.. i can force anyhting on anyone...
yes i go to XX house whenever i am opportuned to go just as i will go to any gathering of submitters whenever i am ooprtuned to go...Going to her house is not in anyway supporting her position.. i would just as well visit you too if i knew where you lived and you invited me and i was opportuned to go.
XX is not head of submission group neither are you..you are both unofficial leaders. you dont command or force an edict on anyone , Remember God and stop this nonsensical behavior...
in a personal note if i did not rememebr God , i would be partial, I would take sides and gang up with one bank.. But i remember Go and do my part which is nudge, remind from time to time and state the obvious,, asking both parties to Remember god and reconsider...
i offered you a solution but u refused to see past your arrogance and ego and you insist unless the dispute is solved mothing can move forward.. whos agenda are we working on here..? yours..
as far as i am concerned there is no dispute but rather a fight for control btw two headstrong adults who are behaving like children... by all means and yes i agree with you on this - both of you continue the same way and see where you both end up..
apathetic is me saying both of you are WRONG - which you both are.. are you looking for me to say who is more wrong than the other... You know, I would commit an injustice to mysoul and to God if i ever did anything of such... you are in the wrong and XX is in the wrong in my view.... both of you deal with it and sort it out.. i would rathe rmuch think it cam be sorted out with private conversations btw the both of you, without the interference of everyone else because the interference is on my view feeding you egos and compounding the issue at hand...
both your egos might think they are in comtrol.. but always rememer God is in control..
Regards to family
Fats
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Salaam,
I am not suspicious of anything, are you going to deny going to XX private Quran study group?
Are you afraid to tell XX to take some positive action towards reconciliation?
And since you have made it your job to point out blame, then will you recognise that you and all the silent majority are equally to blame for this deadlock?
Carry on with this inaction and see where it gets you... since it has got you no where so far, or do you think these "1-2-1 e-mails" is helping the group?
For your information, everything regarding the group all broke down when it was no longer open... private Quran study here, private conversation there etc.
I suggest you too remember God's words of the Quran and truly avoid an apathetic approach.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++
Salam Alaykum
Suspicions don’t get you any where
I have stated my point and I will always state my point. I am not in support of anybody,
You are just as to blame for the dispute as XX is to blame for it – That is my view
Things could have been handled better by both of you – and you are just as to blame for fuelling it just as XXis to blame for fuelling it.
I can neither support you nor support XXX because both of you are WRONG…
Asking for support from others of also WRONG.. We should remain impartial at all times because there is always an element of the unknown – It is when full facts are in your grasp can one make a stance..
The only ones that can be partial – in my view are those who witnessed the incident…
Remember God and avoid unfounded suspicions/assumptions.
Because I don’t publicise my emails asking for restraint from all involved does not make me partial.
I will forever be impartial to this incident. So pls be careful where you are throwing allegations. In all my emails to you, you have insinuated that I am partial to XX side - which is FALSE.
Where I come from, there is a saying “when you talk to a child in private, and they refuse to listen, He will have no choice but to Listen by learning the Hard Way”
The purpose of the email was to ask you for restraint – because it seems you are enjoying the habits of arguments and counter arguments a wee bit too much just as XX is…
Funny enough that is the only thing that gets both of you talking to each other – “Unity thru Division” which is SAD…
Regards to the family.
Salam
Fats
+++++++++++++++++
Salaam,
If you feel inaction or a fake sense of neutrality will move things forward, then don't be surprised how this continues for another few months or years.
It seems this advice of yours is one-sided, especially as you are yet to see how by endorsing XX you are supporting 'one wrong"?
Or, don't you still get, you encouraged her private Quran study, therefore, gave her support, instead of a reason to examine all her actions after the dispute last year.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++
XX,
remember i said before two wrongs dont make a right...
if one gets personal doesnt mean that the other has to as well.
Dont let anger/ego/retaliation get the better of us..
if you dont like what someone has said or writtes, reply back if you must but keep is civil and dont fuel another attack..
lets remember God and remember our conduct to each other... if one fails doesnt mean that we all follow suit...
salam
fats
---------------
The first mail started from right down...
======================
Salamun Alaikum,
Please stop missing the facts.
A few minutes after the incident happened I apologised and requested to move forward (note that I could have justified my actions by her provocation).
Then, I apologised to her again via e-mail, and I and others (e.g. #xx and XX) initially tried to quickly get this resolved, Did XX move forward or show any signs of wanting to?
'Letting sleeping dogs lie' can also be applied elsewhere (e.g. I've moved on, which I have), and this is why we have the Quran for our guidance (e.g. treat each other well, consult, unite etc.).
We can't avoid incidents when a number of individuals come under one roof for debate, but the Quran informs us on how to manage them. And this was neither the first incident nor will it be the last, but whenever they happen they need to managed quickly before the devil takes charge.
I am not carrying a grudge, but I will not be part of any group that picks and chooses or disregards the Quran (e.g. apathetic, suspicious, disregard consultation etc.)
It is bizarre to think now that everything can move forward without coming together and properly acknowledging the past to move forward, or do you think civility is enough to bring about true unity?
Peace.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
salam,
our elders say two wrongs dont make a right...
lets say you insisted on a neutral place to discuss with XX in the first instance asap, have you now abandoned it because you didnt get the response you require?
remember that in the heat of battle, wonds are fresh and memories painful, in order sometimes to resolve things you need to let sleeping dogs lie and once rested and relaxed, you slowly but subtly re-introduce the matter again, chipping away at it until gw the matter is settled...
there was emotional responses/arousing of the ego/arrogance from all sides in my view..going tby the email correspondences that was being fired from left and right,
in no way, am i giving you the impression that you are right or you are in the wrong... i am only asking you to reconsider your stance and helping a group that once was, find its way back to being that same group...
in my view there is always wrong and right on every side , it all depends on how an individual chooses to see it.. i choose not to speculate as to what happened, i was not there,
i have write to you to stop taking the moral high ground because in my view its not justified..remember two wrongs dont make a right...remember humble pie, in the cause of God.. these are all the crazy analagies that i have put before you..
there are some things you overlook when you know that this is how a person is apt to react to certain situations and there are some things that you call to attention if it is not in their behaviour... - this for me is what i feel is the crux of the matter... understanding and communication..
my view you are still carrying a grudge, that is evident from our conversations.. infact everyone involved in my view are carrying grudges.. where that will get you than that is btw all of you and your consciences( i am one to talk, cos i too am known to carry grudges on issues in my ownlife) but the reality is that it is not helpful and it is much much easier to let go..
but if you still feel you have moved on.. then fair enough ... i can only say my bit to you asking you again to reconsider and to lets find a way...
salam alaykum
fats
ps
now i know there are spelling mistakes in this one.. so apologies for that..
========================
Salamun Alaikum,
For someone who claims to be neutral and not wanting to take sides you've made it very clear how you believe I'm in the wrong, regardless of all of XX emotional responses that has led to exclusions from her house, and her disregard of conference precedents.
If there is anyone who has insisted on their position then it is XX since it was I who insisted on meeting in neutral place to resolve things a.s.a.p.
I have moved forward, remember it is you who contacted me.
============================================
>
> Salam , you are obviously wanting 2 be obstinate and nt flinch frm ur position. There is no us or them, we are all in dis together. 4give and 4get..and move on, find a way 4ward. Point 2 note, it is nt apathy bt fairness 2 remain partial 2 the 2 feuding sides. Seeing as u are happy 2 remain on ur stance good 4 u bt i stil urge u 2 reconsider..? u r bigger than that and it is nt a conduct i expect frm u. anyhows, hope u r well, regards 2 the family
>
============================
> > Salamun Alaikum,
> >
> > If the group was that important to you then you would not have indulged in apathy, thinking that things would just be resolved by inaction and time, this thinking is not Quranic.
> >
> > The fact is those of you who have endorsed XX position have moved forward without the rest of us, and those excluded as well as those who do not endorse exclusions have moved on at their various individual levels.
> >
> > With regards to the conference, I tried to bring some due consultation around the process of planning and decision making, exactly like the 2007 conference, however, XXXand XXtook it upon themselves to disregard this.
> >
> > With regards to the group or the lack thereof, we get what we deserve, So if you feel your are suffering, then please ponder on what it is a consequence of (especially that it wasn't like this prior to XX exclusions)?
> >
> >
> > Peace.
> > ...
==============================
> > salam,
> > and i will apologise because i am going to speak very bluntly here,
> > it is not in my nature to be knowingfully disrespetful to my senior ones however there are some facts that we must address here..
> >
> > first, and lastly i will not broach this topic again with you cos the impression you are giving me is that your ego is blinding you to the obvious - i do not endorse any sides position/action - i dont understand it - i wish it were different - but i respect individual choice...
> >
> >, you can claim/take a moral highground because YOU were in the wrong....if you- by your own action admit to bevahiour unbecoming as one who - everyone looks up to (1) and as a submitter (2) and as a human being (3) by my reasoning i dont see where the moral highground is coming from - i feel that is hypocrisy -
> >
> > yes people make mistakes and just as you wanted the other sides forgiveness and want them to forgive and start on afresh dont you think that the same right should be accorded by you...
> >
> > one step that is what is required - remember i said if it means eating humble pie, what is that compared to the unity that will gw flourish and renewed bonds that gw will stay in place?
> >
> > you dont want to listen but rather you just keep on your agrieved status - let it go!!
> > what is done is done... forget about it lets move on...
> >
> > the end goal sometimes can justify the means, if i remember correctly - the conference was put on the table but by my understanding - because the initial discussion was not with everyone around - in particular you - the idea was blown out.. the conference is a good idea by all accounts - if it was brought up by anyone -.. the aim is what matters - personal issues aside - leave all that, get the aim -
> > at least the first steps is visualisation -
> >
> > look at it this way - at the conference you get to meet with XX, you talk and pray together, would that not intself be a blessing from God if that were to happen?
> >
> > yes communication barries breakdown - from my understanding of the emails on what happened on the day - but did it not happen before and did you not manage to resolve it..
> >
> > let me draw you to my first ever quran study - there was a communication breakdown btw yourself and XX on the day, there was shouting, and another time as well...
> >
> > yes you are both passionate about your ideas, but is about understanding patience, knowing when to back down and reserve yourself and letting the truth - which - will always be evident - arise itself....
> >
> > on so many levels you were in the wrong, and because of that ,the whole community must suffer for it...it came to a point that everyone was using the quran verses to justify their side.. is that what the word of God has become - is that what we should be encouraging amongst ourselves...
> >
> > while it is not in me to cast aspersions of selfishness ( far from it because i personally am a selfish human being) all of you are being selfish - you are only thinking of you...
> > look at how the relationship btw the submitters have degraded - all because of that one day...
> > as with any family there are rifts and tensions but if we are really united then we still pull together regardless and we slowly chip away at the cracks until is becomes seamless..
> >
> > i urge you reconsider your position, remember the greater good, remember God,
> >
> > a way forward for the present moment is neutrality - that way no one lays claim, but we all are present and can contribute.. neutrality so no one can claim to beoppressed, and initially its only for a times limit, as we progress then we review...
> >
> > You are the un-official organiser that is why i have come directly to you -
> >
> > Salam alaykum
> > fats
======================================
> > Salamun Alaikum, Who decided on the conference's date, time and location, where was this consultation? Putting God first also means putting his words (i.e. Quran) first and into action, is the theme of 'consultation' not clear in the Quran? There stopped being a group when you and others endorsed XX exclusions by going to her private Quran study group knowing clearly about the circumstances of its exclusivity, so you all need to get together and figure it out. Peace. ... Those who believe love GOD the most... (2:165.)
=======================================
> > salam
> > the consult was on the table as far as i am aware re- the conference however - my understanding was that there still the matter of exclusions which was beclouding all parties and submitters involved....
> >
> > like i said we are well past that now( i think) and its coming up to a year, this is good enough time for all to reflect and reconsider...
> >
> > me in my own personal opinion - i dont think that any person can hijack a conference - yes they may be to involved in it as such may see the plan as a baby idea of theirs, but in my view if the plan is in a good cause then fair enuff to them, their ego/feelings of achievement is btw them and God..
> >
> > , as with anything, we put God first, however hard it may be, personal issues aside and we contribute whatever we can, be it time, ear to listen, bla bla towards understanding God and gw working righteousness...
> >
> > remember the time that we hae a msn chat re the issue of 3 vs 5 prayers when i found the about a split btw the original community - edip yuksel bla bla... remember the advice you gave me... what we have however in a slightly different circumstances is more or less what has happened....
> >
> > so this time the foot is on the other shoe and i too will ask YOU to help us find a way forward with this group...lets not dwell on what has happened in the past - we learn from it and we grow as individuals from the lesson - lets look foward as submitters still holding on to believing and worshipping God - lets look for another venue, start something in place.. if we start looking now - maybe gw we will find something in place by xmas/new year so we leave all baggage aside and we move forward....
> > yes - there may be hurt feelings, bruised egos, we might have to eat the occasional humble pie, but in the cause of God, what is that compared to paradise eternal...?
> >
> > salam alaykum
> > fats
=============================================
> > Salamun Alaikum, It is quite simple, you were not excluded so it is not really your concern. XX has said a lot of stuff, which obviously you are not keeping up to date with. And you are biased because everything you're pointing out is from XX point of view e.g. XX said this... XX done that... Her residence... Have you not bothered to wonder why it was her residence? Let's just say we park the incident at XX home for a minute to reflect, have you missed XX and XX hijack the conference without any due consultation? Peace. ... Those who believe love GOD the most... (2:165.)
=========================================
> > salam alaykum XX,
> > considering that the only opportunity that i get to see any submitter is via quran study when i attend.. i guess it is not up for comparison because i have basically been doing the same thing as i was doing before... some meetings people dont attend cos they are nto able to - myself included however this particular attendance is due to exclusion and also that there is no host venue for uk submitters group quran study...
> >
> > the fact that three people were excluded is through no action of myself but i guess rather actions of those three people themselves....
> >
> > the exclusion is such that the owner of the residence advises that she wishes no longer to hold submitters uk group quran study at her residence.. which then means that fair enuff, if she no longer wants to hold group meetings we should then look for an alternative venue, should we want the group study to continue.. there is no arguement on that and no issue with that....
> >
> > That is what i am suggesting.... find another venue... which is the crux of my email to you..
> >
> > i still very much remain neutral with regards to the situation necesitating an exclusion - whilst i dont agree with it - i dont understand it fully - given that i am not in anyones shoes - i wont want to hazard a guess as to what happened or what i too would have done should i be involved in it - as to the conduct exhibited on both side, whilst i may have my own personal opinions, in no way is this influenced by either side... i refuse to be drawn into what happened but rather will gently in my own way try to bring the issue to light and urge all the sides to remember God and reconsider their position from time to time..
> >
> > whilst i understand that harsh words and hasty words and actions were said and done in the heat of the moment, we are no longer in the heat of the moment, - the olive branch i believe on the table was that, XXX adv she had no problems being in the same room as you/the other three, which in all honesty i think included XX, though i am not sure as to the third, - however she wished for the group meetings not to be held at her residence any longer....
> >
> > remember tha liberties were taken which should not have been taken - that is what i assume - communication barrier was evident - however - it is not a big deal, it is not a necessity for the submitters uk group quran study to be held at XX residence neither is her residence an official gathering for submiters in europe.. if she wishes not to host again then, fair enuff to her, we just look for somewhere else and we continue along... yes we were all fortunate to have her residence as a central gathering point, but she felt - i presume liberties were taken in her own house - and as such what has happened has happened.. we dont dwell on it but we thank God for the opportunity to meet in her residence as a group and we look ahead and forward to another venue for group study....
> >
> > what do you think..
> > salam alaykum
> > fats
=============================
> > Salamun Alaikum, You may have no interest in taking sides, but you have been taking sides (you just need to compare when was the last time you saw XX, and then replace that thought with the 3 submitters excluded) amongst other glaring observations. Also, you have been indirectly impacted by XX exclusion of 3 submitters, and neither is this idea of yours new, or has it taken all of you who are receiving invites to XX private Quran study group all this time to recognise this issue of 'neutrality vs exclusivity'? What face to face meeting, and what olive branch? Peace. ... Those who believe love GOD the most...
==================================
> > alaykum salam ,
> >
> > good to hear from you...
> >
> > yet again i insit but seem not to take heed that i have no interest in taking sides and i have not endorsed any position.. far from it... i was not there when whatver happened so i will be in no fit/just state to take sides or endore position as you have it...
> > i just simply respect each individual right for them to do as they wish, surely God is the one who guides and hopefully he will guide you both to the right decision...
> >
> > in any case the idea was an idea , cos i am thinking is we can have an organised meeting in a neutral place that one one can lay claim to.. so it is not a case of my place or your place, people dont feel obliged or wont take liberties in such a place as it will be a communal facility for use by everyone, submitter/muslim, christian.. something like a library with discussion facilities, cafe with seating areas where we can al gather to meet and discuss together..
> >
> > as far as i was aware issues were resolved in that face to face meeting was encoraged based on XXXs olive branch from the last email i read...
> >
> > in anycase it is an open invite, a neutral place and we have one aim, worshiping God.. nest pas?
> >
> > salam alaykum
=================================================
> > Salamun Alaikum, It is also a shame that the exclusions of submitters did not trigger the correct action towards quick resolution, especially that we have the Quran. I'm also sure XX and XX know London pretty well, and whether you like to be reminded or not you have endorsed XX position, or does the exclusion of 3 submitters not mean anything to you? Yes, it is a good suggestion, but a lot has been said and done/not done, and nothing has been truly resolved, so is your suggestion to meet to resolve the isues or to act like it didn't all happen? Peace, XX ... Those who believe love GOD the most... (2:165.) ====================================================
> > Salam alaykum
> > hope you are doing ok... regards to the children and to ,
> >
> > I just wanted to touch base, ( though i am not one to do that very often as i am bit of a loner) but i had an idea and i though it would be nice to touch base, tis a shame that the group message thing has stopped, however for every disapointment is a blessing in disguise..
> >
> > I was thinking and i dont know london that well, but i reckon that you do, what of a platonic venue for Quran meeting, seeing as london is a likely central location for most people -
> > like a library/venue/coffee shop where we meet for like 2-3 hours have organised Quran study and then all leave for our various destinations?
> >
> > what do you think of this idea?
> >
> > look forward to hearing from you.
> > alaykum salamm
> > ps: apologies for any spelling mistakes
